Yoga Strength

Question:

You raise some excellent points with plenty of ‘food for thought I will have to re-read your message in order to give you a full answer. However I have NO problems with backbends. My problem with sciatica is ONLY for forward bends. But the point of my question is a general one, that is. Is sciatica pain a sign of damage and therefore pain should be avoided at all costs and what type of pain is a sign of nerve damage. Or can there be sciatic pain that is ok if the ‘benefit’ is more flexibility? Thanks J

Keep in my mind that I am just some guy on the internet who has practiced yoga a long time.  But here is what I think (and I invite others to correct me). The adage "No pain, no gain" only relates to times when one challenges there muscles.  Holding Downdog for a while will challenge the muscles and holding it to the "pain" point helps one build endurance. There are other cases of "good" pain I don’t have time to talk about now. Sciatic pain seems not to be "real" pain because it is caused by a nerve being pinched.  Although the pain seems like it is coming from down your leg it is really caused by misalignment somewhere along the nerve path. The pain is still very real. Can you work through sciatic pain?  I don’t think so. If forward bends cause sciatica the day after, the mechanics of the forward bend is exacerbating the pinched nerve.  Repeated assaults on this pinched area are eventually going to cause permanent nerve damage. This does not mean that you have to quit yoga.  It means that you have to find how far you can forward bend without exacerbating the problem. Keeping you back in an arch (no rounding) can you come forward and put your hands on a table? or a bench? Note how far you go and if you can find exactly what it is that causes the nerve disruption.  Does it help to keep the legs absolutely straight?  Perhaps a strap around the thighs? Maybe the legs have to be apart or together? Gentle experimentation is your friend. Bring your mind deep inside you body when you practice. Really focus on the anatomy of your practice. Study an anatomy book. Get an understanding of were your nerves run and notice what is happening as you bend forward. I hope this helps. — ~Stu

Response:

Hi, Jack, I’m not an expert, but I would say if it hurts the next day, you might indeed be doing some damage. I have some difficulty with this asana as well, particulary "coming out" of the pose, and I have learned a variation (from an Erich Schiffman workshop) that might be helpful for you too: Instead of going into the pose and out of it from a standing pose (which, I think, is the "standard" way), try the following: Start from downward facing dog. Look at your fingertips and put the right leg forward so your ankle is directly below your knee. Have your hips low and the left leg straight with your toes tucked under. You’re basically in a low lunge now. From there, turn the left foot out by 45 degrees, stretch the right leg so it’s straight and move your torso up into triangle pose (put your right arm on the ankle of your right leg, next to your right foot, or where it’s comfortable, swing your left arm behind you – making a circle – and up). Come out of the pose going the opposite direction: Left arm swings down, left foot moves in, right leg bends, both hands on the mat, low lunge, right foot back into down dog. Repeat for other side. This should be much easier on your lower back. HTH, -Alex – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just learned the Utthita Trikonasana or Triangle pose. I’m enjoying it’s ‘new’ sensation,                        ’It reaches the parts other poses doesn’t.’ It’s a lovely stretch. However, next day I have sciatic pain down one leg. Does it matter? Is it doing damage? Should I just ignore it and as I practice this pose the irritation / pain will diminish? Thanks J

Response:

Thanks for the   S t r e t ch   Kevin

Response:

 Gidday Jack.  Yoga and other forms of exercise are mentioned in the books shown on the web  site.  I have included an extract from a typical flyer used for promotional  purposes by teachers. See below:  "The most significant reaction to the stress of life is increased muscular  tension which results in physical and mental changes that profoundly affect  our well-being. These alterations become one’s way of being in the world,  and undesirable patterns of movement and inefficient posture (which  reinforce each other) are the result. Increasing one’s flexibility reverses  these tendencies.  The first feature of Posture and Flexibility that distinguish it from other  approaches to stretching is that we have borrowed techniques from a large  number of disciplines on the basis of two pragmatic criteria: ‘Is it safe?’  and ‘Does it work?’.  Another feature is that all of the major poses from various disciplines have  been broken down into ‘functional units of flexibility’, based around  single-joint complexes. These are taught individually, then later combined  into whole poses for their holistic benefits.   We do this because experience has shown that often only one part in a chain  of these units may limit flexibility in a particular movement, and that  working on these tight parts much accelerates the acquisition of whole-body  suppleness. In addition to locating one’s own tight areas, other advantages  of this approach are that you learn the most efficient techniques to alter  these.  Other distinguishing features of Posture & Flexibility are the use of the  ’Contract-Relax’ (C-R) approach to increase flexibility, and we have  designed a comprehensive range of partner-assisted stretches.  Attending the classes will increase the range of movement of the body’s  joints and muscles, and in the short term will leave you feeling relaxed. In  the medium term, any athletic, dance or martial activity will improve.   As you will become more familiar with the techniques that allow you to  release accumulated stress (held as tension), the quality of movement, your  posture, and your awareness will increase significantly.  The exercises are derived from Yoga, Jikyo Jutsu and Makko-Hoo (two  traditional Japanese exercise systems) and specific exercises from  gymnastics and dance, including balancing movements."  There’s your reference to yoga Jack. And that’s about all you will find I’m  afraid.  Basically, P&F tries all ideas and concepts, adapts, modifies, if they work,  they are used. If they don’t, they’re discarded.  P&F has an open approach to stretching and incorporates exercises that are  able to utilise the P&F criteria. That is; Application of the principles to  effectively ensure form, cuing, safety and modifications to suit special  individuals.  Hope this extra information interests you, try the exercise, and by all  means do "come back to me", I’m interested in your (and your body’s)  responses to P&F stretching.  BTW, the exercise I described is not considered as an advanced piriformis  stretch, its about number 2 on a scaled list of 6. So if you do not ‘feel’ a   strong stretch, (provided it is executed correctly) you’ll need to advance  up the scale.  Good stretching,  Kevin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Kevin No I haven’t tried your exercises. But.. I’m being treated by a ‘Yoga’ trainer specialising in treating specific body problems. I’ve also been given exercises ‘known’ to bring relief to PIRIFORMIS sciatica sufferers. These exercises haven’t touched me. Ok I’ll try your exercises and allow me to come back to you. Mind you I’m very impressed by your site very professional indeed. Interesting that I saw no reference to Yoga on your site, is this deliberate? J

Response:

You raise some excellent points with plenty of ‘food for thought I will have to re-read your message in order to give you a full answer. However I have NO problems with backbends. My problem with sciatica is ONLY for forward bends. But the point of my question is a general one, that is. Is sciatica pain a sign of damage and therefore pain should be avoided at all costs and what type of pain is a sign of nerve damage. Or can there be sciatic pain that is ok if the ‘benefit’ is more flexibility? Thanks J

Response:

I’ve just learned the Utthita Trikonasana or Triangle pose. I’m enjoying it’s ‘new’ sensation, ‘It reaches the parts other poses doesn’t.’ It’s a lovely stretch. However, next day I have sciatic pain down one leg. Does it matter? Is it doing damage? Should I just ignore it and as I practice this pose the irritation / pain will diminish? Thanks J

I have been thinking about your message for a while. I tried the stretch that Kevin suggested and is sure is a good one.  Not only does it get the piriformis but it does a nice job of isolating the ilia-tibia (sp) band (the muscles running sideways down the leg). It may be an excellent "warm-up" for the standing poses. His description of using the breath and "playing" with the pose by contracting and releasing muscles, are excellent suggestions and can be incorporated into any yoga poses. I have some questions for you. From my experience Utthita Trikonasana should not be exacerbating sciatica. 1. Are you sure that Trikonasana is the culprit? I would hope that you are doing a sequence of 4 or five standing poses and not only one. If the pain is coming a day later, how do you narrow the problem down to one pose? It took me months to figure out that backbends (hyperextensions) cause me problems the next day. 2. When you do Trikonasana do you use support? Can you reach the floor or your shin without compromising the back alignment? Perhaps you should rest your hand on a block so your not going over so low. I would hope that your Yoga instructor would know this.  If your back is taking the strain as it is rotated against tight hips – it is a bad thing. Really bad if you have any degenerating discs. 3. What is the nature of this sciatic pain the next day? Is it sharp? Does it throbe? If you try Trikonasana when you experience the pain does it get worse? Does any type of exercise (twists, knees to chest, gently backbends, walking) help abate the pain? Answers to these questions will help determine if this is "bad" pain or the "good" kind of pain that is just atrophied muscles getting their first taste of circulation in a while.

Response:

Yeah, that’s true Jack. But what would you call a high percentage. It is my understanding that PIRIFORMIS sciatica is of a higher percentage than most people think. What usually causes ‘trapped nerve’ and ‘disc compression’? Muscles in spasm. (AMS-Adaptive Muscle Shortening) Erector Spinae are mostly under constant load and stress as a result of poor posture and sedentary lifestyles. A muscle under load and stress will continually shorten as it tries to hold the body in its normal anatomical position. This brings the discs closer, and certain movements can cause ‘nerve impingement’. And yes, most "poses" will not ‘cure’ this problem because yoga asanas mostly maintain flexibility, and any improvement is marginal and slow. The idea is to rapidly gain flexibility to correct muscular and skeletal imbalances, relieving tight areas and releasing the tension caused by stress, bad posture, poor work practices and (this may offend some people) including obesity. For more details, please: Take a look at the P&F Web site. http://www.posture-and-flexibility.com.au/ PS: You didn’t mention if you tried the "EXERCISE" as described. (not pose as in the asanas) Regards, Kevin. —

Hi Kevin Yes the poses you describe are ok for PIRIFORMIS sciatica. However a high percentage of sciatica is caused by a ‘trapped nerve’ caused by disk compression, or something like that.(different people give it different names).  Basically it’s ‘back nerve’ problems, that most poses will not cure. Although they may make the pain easier as joint are more ‘fluid’. J

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m asuming the "sciatica" is in the leg you are bending over, and you are doing the asana over both legs.If you are getting pain in one leg only, (and this is not unusual) this shows an imbalance of muscle flexibility (in your case) of the piriformis. (one of the external hip rotators). Ask your instructor for a specific exercise to relieve this situation or follow the insructions below. For the sciatica, you need to stretch the PIRIFORMIS muscle. For those who need to know, this muscle is used to rotate the leg outwards when the leg is flexed at the hip. (as when seated and getting out from the car) There are about 6 variations of the piriformis stretch, depending on flexibility. There is a high percentage of the population (me included) that one and sometimes two strands of the sciatic nerve actually passes through piriformis.

Response:

Hi Kevin No I haven’t tried your exercises. But.. I’m being treated by a ‘Yoga’ trainer specialising in treating specific body problems. I’ve also been given exercises ‘known’ to bring relief to PIRIFORMIS sciatica sufferers. These exercises haven’t touched me. Ok I’ll try your exercises and allow me to come back to you. Mind you I’m very impressed by your site very professional indeed. Interesting that I saw no reference to Yoga on your site, is this deliberate? J

Response:

Hi Kevin Yes the poses you describe are ok for PIRIFORMIS sciatica. However a high percentage of sciatica is caused by a ‘trapped nerve’ caused by disk compression, or something like that.(different people give it different names).  Basically it’s ‘back nerve’ problems, that most poses will not cure. Although they may make the pain easier as joint are more ‘fluid’. J – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m asuming the "sciatica" is in the leg you are bending over, and you are doing the asana over both legs.If you are getting pain in one leg only, (and this is not unusual) this shows an imbalance of muscle flexibility (in your case) of the piriformis. (one of the external hip rotators). Ask your instructor for a specific exercise to relieve this situation or follow the insructions below. For the sciatica, you need to stretch the PIRIFORMIS muscle. For those who need to know, this muscle is used to rotate the leg outwards when the leg is flexed at the hip. (as when seated and getting out from the car) There are about 6 variations of the piriformis stretch, depending on flexibility. There is a high percentage of the population (me included) that one and sometimes two strands of the sciatic nerve actually passes through piriformis.

Response:

I’m asuming the "sciatica" is in the leg you are bending over, and you are doing the asana over both legs.If you are getting pain in one leg only, (and this is not unusual) this shows an imbalance of muscle flexibility (in your case) of the piriformis. (one of the external hip rotators). Ask your instructor for a specific exercise to relieve this situation or follow the insructions below. For the sciatica, you need to stretch the PIRIFORMIS muscle. For those who need to know, this muscle is used to rotate the leg outwards when the leg is flexed at the hip. (as when seated and getting out from the car) There are about 6 variations of the piriformis stretch, depending on flexibility. There is a high percentage of the population (me included) that one and sometimes two strands of the sciatic nerve actually passes through piriformis. A simple beginners exercise is to sit on the floor, both legs straight out in front. Lift one leg, let’s say your right leg, bending at the knee and place the foot on the floor outside the left knee. Lift and straighten the back and lean forward placing the chest on the right knee. Take the left arm and hook it around the right knee, then hook the right arm over the left. Breathe in, and as you breathe out, straighten the back and pull the right knee towards the left shoulder, bringing the trunk back to a vertical position. BREATHE To safely lengthen the muscle, contract it by pushing the right knee away towards the floor for 5 seconds, without letting the knee or leg move. (ie: hold the position with the arms) RELAX, BREATHE in and on the breath out, pull the knee closer towards the shoulder, keeping the back straight and BOTH buttocks on the floor. You’ve probably noticed the right buttock has lifted, push it back down. You’ve just found piriformis! Do the contraction once or twice more, then do the other side. Don’t do this every day, twice a week is enough at first. Allow the muscle to recover. Good luck and remember, take it SLOWLY and BREATHE. Cheers, Kevin. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve just learned the Utthita Trikonasana or Triangle pose. I’m enjoying it’s ‘new’ sensation,                         ‘It reaches the parts other poses doesn’t.’ It’s a lovely stretch. However, next day I have sciatic pain down one leg. Does it matter? Is it doing damage? Should I just ignore it and as I practice this pose the irritation / pain will diminish? Thanks J

Response:

I’ve just learned the Utthita Trikonasana or Triangle pose. I’m enjoying it’s ‘new’ sensation,                         ‘It reaches the parts other poses doesn’t.’ It’s a lovely stretch. However, next day I have sciatic pain down one leg. Does it matter? Is it doing damage? Should I just ignore it and as I practice this pose the irritation / pain will diminish? Thanks J

Response: