More confused then before I arrived

Yoga Strength » Hatha Yoga » More confused then before I arrived

Categories: Hatha Yoga

Question:

*** No, our souls have lost their way. The soul assumed seperation from god, demanding life to be seen the way is, including cut out ego self. *** Why did the souls do this? How would you know this? *** The soul and soul consciousness would not see life this way normally. *** Why not? I cannot comprehend how you can presume to know what the soul should and should not see. Do you know what the soul is? *** The Christ conciousness indestructable and immutable. *** Abtracts usually are. *** My understanding is that our christ self is already there, always had been. Our souls descend into creation, then return upward becomming more conscious in terms of christ consciousness as apposed to consciousness in terms of pure feeling. At some point the two merge. This is supposed to mark are actual birth to the cosmos. *** Why do they descend? How do souls connect to the birth of the cosmos? *** There is an interesting book if you can find it. It’s called Life after Death by Hannah Jacob Doumette. I don’t know if it ever was published on the open market. *** I sincerely hope not, unless it is labeled fiction. The logic is simple. Someone who dies, doesn’t come back to tell us about it. Those that are revived from near-death experiences are interesting. [snipped fantasy] *** Fascinating stuff. Robert W. *** I’ll label it as foolish. — "You only live twice: Once when you’re born, Once when you look death in the face." – Ian Fleming

Response:

*** Ok, I really disagree. Without christ consciousness, the only consciousness we posses is in terms of soul consciousness manifest as the ego. Through evolution or direct techniques, our christ selves are developed and we awaken consciously in spirit. Christ consciousness merging with soul consciousness is realized through the development of the etheric body or chakras. *** So "Christ" consciousness would be the opposite of the soul consciousness in most repects? Unselfish rather than selfish?

Response:

No, our souls have lost their way. The soul assumed seperation from god, demanding life to be seen the way is, including cut out ego self. The soul and soul consciousness would not see life this way normally. The Christ conciousness indestructable and immutable. My understanding is that our christ self is already there, always had been. Our souls descend into creation, then return upward becomming more conscious in terms of christ consciousness as apposed to consciousness in terms of pure feeling. At some point the two merge. This is supposed to mark are actual birth to the cosmos. There is an interesting book if you can find it. It’s called Life after Death by Hannah Jacob Doumette. I don’t know if it ever was published on the open market. He goes into great detail the purpose of each of the seven planes found in both the astral or soul worlds as well as the heaven worlds. Very very detailed descriptions including the heaven planes associated with arch types (important for healing). He also goes into detail about the birth of humanity, the process of descent as a purely aware (but unconscious) being down out of the mind of god into creation then, the return up, the merging of the soul with spirit, etc. In part of the book he goes into detail about how on the way back up, the soul spends a period of time in a special place on the astral where it schooled in creativity. Several steps are found here, one plane has semi-persistent creation and others where what is created only persisits for a short period of time and fades. Fascinating stuff. Robert W.

Response:

Kundalini exists. It is described in many different maps of spirituality (i.e., the different paths). Some paths give awakening of the Kundalini great importance. Others feel it may be a hindrance to reaching the highest Truth and may hold danger for the seeker. Because of the different maps which correspond to different paths, it will not be possible to reach complete agreement about Kundalini in newsgroups such as alt.yoga and alt.meditation. Within the larger context of this thread, this is another example of why it’s difficult to get specific teachings from a newsgroup. There is not enough consensus, nor is there the real-world support which may be essential to serious spiritual practice. Ultimately, it’s helpful to feel one’s connection with a particular path, and to try and realize the Truth using the map provided by that path as a guide for personal development, for making the Truth one’s own. In the beginning we may be a self grasping at the Truth. But teachers tell us that as we progress, as we become one with the Truth, we will transcend this limited i-ness. We will become something much vaster than we could have imagined with our small self at the beginning of the journey. Film directors have made so many "road pictures." A character may consult a map, but at each turn the experience they have is absolutely unique. So we shouldn’t be afraid that just because we use a map we are somehow becoming carbon copies of someone else’s experience. But if there is no map, no plan as to how to reach our destination, then at each turn there may be confusion. Some people like confusion. But as they continue to suffer from confusion, gradually they begin to appreciate the benefits of having a map. As discussed elsewhere in this thread, newsgroups like alt.meditation and alt.yoga tend to be bulletin boards where advocates for different paths post messages encouraging seekers to choose their map and not someone else’s. When this is kept on a high level, it may be beneficial to the extent that we can see how people who follow different approaches express themselves. When it sinks to a low level, readers may begin to wonder whether such things as Truth, Light and Compassion really exist. They do. But newsgroups even at their best can only point to the moon, not become the moon. Some people feel they will do a good job of pointing to the moon by acting like mimeo machines. Others feel that even if one is only pointing, still one should try and do so with a little originality and a human touch. –outcast235

Response:

Here’s my 2 cents worth. The Kundalini is out of reach of the mental and emotional areas of human beings.

Ok, I really disagree. Without christ consciousness, the only consciousness we posses is in terms of soul consciousness manifest as the ego. Through evolution or direct techniques, our christ selves are developed and we awaken consciously in spirit. Christ consciousness merging with soul consciousness is realized through the development of the etheric body or chakras. It is true that the intellect born of the physical has no way to reach *anything* spiritual. It is a living death. One becomes conscious as a son of god by a process of realizing this in feeling and transformation of the ego to it’s eternal nature. Having said all this, the center at the base of the spine, along with any number of veils can be torn or prematurely opened, bringing about rapid and unpleasant The Kundalini resides in the sacrum bone (Greeks might have known about this) and has no connection with the left or right sympathetic. Any activity which we undertake is of the left channel (subconscious mind) or right channel (conscious mind). Hence any so called attempt to raise the kundalini will result in failure as you cannot reach it via the left and right channel.

Ok, I really disagree here as well. Soul power is an enormously powerful force. The soul operates in its consciousness along with will to express in this realm (or any other). One need only focus on any subject, point, or concept for long enough to penetrate the veils of physical intellect and ego, bringing to bare will and emotion on the subject. If one focuses on expressing with a center or indirectly by attempting to manifest a power or virtue that is embodied in a given center, then that power or virtue *will* be expressed dependent on development. We cannot function on this plane at all without the veiled (or unveiled powers) embodied in the etheric form. We could not lift a finger or push out a breath without will. We cannot imagine or generate a thought what so ever without creative power. Divine love, will, mother and father principles and energies issue from the center at the base of the spine. By virtue of living we make use of the Kundalini, we cannot exist without it. What is true is that this power is for the most part, latent and dormant to the conscious mind of most people (thank god). However, it is possible to rip or tear the veils that protect us. I see this as the issue involving the awakening of Kundalini is those not yet prepared. Now about the Kundalini and its descriptions from ancient scriptures. It is shown to be a gentle energy like a mother waiting for its child to get ready so that it can give it the longed for knowledge of its roots and origins. Its tendency is to rise against the force of gravity. Its an intelligent energy far beyond the intelligence we can hope to have. It is superior to our minds – hence it is the only force which can take us beyond mind.

In christian mystic circles, this is called divine mind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It cannot be abused as it follows all the laws of natural flows of energy, correcting the imbalances in us as it flows. Being many stranded it will also rise based on the capacity of the person, its child, strand by strand. As a mothering energy it knows how to nurse its child as a mother would when we are born, gradually bringing it to maturity in its spiritual development. Next the parasympathetic and its real purpose. It corresponds to the central channel and comes into full play, connecting us to the present area of consciousness within ourselves after the kundalini is awakened. The left and right sides, you guessed, correspond to the past and future resp. What is the present in reality? When a thought rises and falls, there is a small moment of time (the present) before another thought rises and falls. That small moment of time is the time which corresponds to the central channel. When the Kundalini rises it takes us beyond thought and also widens the time between thoughts – thus bringing us in connection with the present (central area of our being) and also with our entire being. The actualization of this happening is the manifestation of a cool breeze on the hands and above the head as described in many of the scriptures, chaitanya lahiri, cool breeze of the holy ghost etc. Look at mythological pictures where they show a fountain above the head of a meditator. Lord Buddha called it the middle path quite literally because that’s where the kundalini rises, in central channel. Lord Jesus Christ talks about when your eye is single your body is full of light. The singleness comes from becoming connected to the single present allowing you to see things from an absolute point of view rather than from the relative areas of the left and right sides i.e. mind and emotions.

At first I thought JC was talking about the third eye, but my impression now is that he is talking about consciousness centered in the heart. In my experience, when this is achieved, the whole soul spiritual forms become one very powerful furnace. How is the Kundalini really awakened? There is single prerequisite. You must be in the presence of a realized soul or someone in whom the Kundalini is awakened.

I really disagree! The spirit christ or god manifest in creation is the only presence required. The presence of a qualified master ( I assume that is what you are referring to) is a descending path technique and is *obsolete*. Next question why? Remember earlier we said that you cannot reach the Kundalini with your mind via the sympathetics. That’s why. Now if you go back two paragraphs "The actualization…" you will see it says the awakening manifests as a cool flowing breeze of energy. So in one in whom the Kundalini is awakened the energy rises pierces the fontanel bone (fountain bone – again implying some connection with Kundalini and its working) area and comes out as a fountain of energy and flows down through the brain, sympathetic nervous system (cooling and balancing it), then throughout the body and into the atmosphere via the skin, hands and feet. This energy which flows into the atmosphere is absorbed by people around and triggers the kundalini in them.

One need only meditate on the presence of the divine mother principle, Holy Spirit, or Spirit of Truth to realize this energy. One may not be consciously aware of it however. An easy mistake to make is that one might imagine the Christ or the Holy Spirit and assume that the presence is not there because they cannot feel it. As soon as one thinks about any being, intelligence, or power, they *are* in contact with it. Now before you rush out to find somebody who has their kundalini raised, digest all the information thoroughly, before doing so. Ask leading questions. If they cannot answer – is it because they don’t know or have not had their kundalinis awakened. Don’t let mystery or secrecy about the whole thing stop you. Some people make it sound mysterious to avoid answering questions.

I agree. In my experience I have found that the exalted bliss one craves need not be looked at as something reserved for the dogmatic practice of ancient rituals or the oppressive devotion to earthly ideas of spiritual law. The most naturally found state of oneness I have observed in this life is that of children at play. There is a gold light seen in their laughter, there souls soar high in the heaven planes as they delight in play with each other. There are as many ways to god as ideas one can envision. The loss of oneness of god we suffered along time ago was the assumption of preconceived notions, one upon the other till we were entombed by our own ideas of what should be, derived separate from the nurturing hand of truth. Imagine your soul lifted to heaven, and it is done. Imagine your form full of light, and it is. Imagine your consciousness riding on the loving breath of the unknowable god, and you will soon hear him speaking to you in the language of love and feeling. Robert W.

Response:

I have offered the Highest Teachings on newsgroups. It’s just a matter of using our best discretion to follow the highest path. Even in the daily world (outside of NGs) we would have to use the same discretion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There is not enough consensus, nor is there the real-world support which may be essential to serious spiritual practice. Ultimately, it’s helpful to feel one’s connection with a particular path, and to try and realize the Truth using the map provided by that path as a guide for personal development, for making the Truth one’s own. In the beginning we may be a self grasping at the Truth. But teachers tell us that as we progress, as we become one with the Truth, we will transcend this limited i-ness. We will become something much vaster than we could have imagined with our small self at the beginning of the journey. Film directors have made so many "road pictures." A character may consult a map, but at each turn the experience they have is absolutely unique. So we shouldn’t be afraid that just because we use a map we are somehow becoming carbon copies of someone else’s experience. But if there is no map, no plan as to how to reach our destination, then at each turn there may be confusion. Some people like confusion. But as they continue to suffer from confusion, gradually they begin to appreciate the benefits of having a map. As discussed elsewhere in this thread, newsgroups like alt.meditation and alt.yoga tend to be bulletin boards where advocates for different paths post messages encouraging seekers to choose their map and not someone else’s.

It also could be a service to humanity, such as throwing out seeds. If the seed falls on fertile ground, it can grow and develop. When this is kept on a high level, it may be beneficial to the extent that we can see how people who follow different approaches express themselves. When it sinks to a low level, readers may begin to wonder whether such things as Truth, Light and Compassion really exist. They do. But newsgroups even at their best can only point to the moon, not become the moon.

Is anybody advocating a NG as a Guru? The NG is composed of individuals. I would advise readers to seek the highest Guru (an individual). If he is on an NG, then follow him. If we meet him in the daily life world, then follow him. The main thing is to come under his shelter, and guidance. Some people feel they will do a good job of pointing to the moon by acting like mimeo machines.

Teachings don’t change. The highest teachings don’t come in a new model every year, like new cars. My Master used to say that the Sant Mat teachings are the "same ‘ol wine in a different bottle." Every Master is different, but he will have to give the same teachings, as they never change. Others feel that even if one is only pointing, still one should try and do so with a little originality and a human touch. –outcast235

I don’t think we are in a position to demand that Sat Gurus entertain us differently every time. That is arrogance, IMHO. We are beggars. If we get a piece of stale bread to eat, being beggars, then we ought to be thankful. God always gives us what we need, and he gives us the highest teachings through the Living Master. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

Hey since when does micheal martin start sounding like me using my buzz spine…….see why its not always a good idea to do the translations tremble for all chambers too come are far worse if another ever comes turns cube the cube turns sphere and nothing between heaven and hell is even in the farthest streech of "your imagination"……. is not the spine and throw the bones to the wind snap it like a whip youll never the universal mother from the center of the universe to the center of it all even a spine an axi between cube / sphere. A chinese immortal found in the corner of the rectangular chamber is famous for having a student build a certain house than tear it down than build it again……mr.martin i wouldnt have you even touch the lowend plumbing.You couldnt square stones if the stone was cubed for you. JD as Q in his pyramid

Response:

[...] such as alt.yoga and alt.meditation. Within the larger context of this thread, this is another example of why it’s difficult to get specific teachings from a newsgroup. There is not enough consensus, nor is there the real-world support which may be essential to serious

Someone trying to learn yoga from a newsgroup, with no outside resources, is doomed You need to have some context (map?) to test the claims made here. Attempting to piece together some consistent philosophy from all the B.S. out here is a sure path to confusion. -mes

Response:

Kundalini is a power at the base of the spine. It is at a much lower level than our normal mental activity, which is just below the third eye center, in the forehead. All chakras in the physical body are getting their power from the astral plane. They are lower reflections. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The functioning of the left and right sympathetics are known by medical science while little is known about the para-sympathetic. The sympathetics are the gross aspects of the IDA and Pingala channels or the left and right channels (sun and moon channels of Hatha Yoga). The right channel connects to the left brain and deals with our thinking, planning, futuristic thinking, technology etc. It also has to do with the conscious and supra conscious minds. The left channel connects to the right brain and has to do with the past, the subconscious, emotions, caring qualities, reflections, memory, the id personality etc. The Kundalini resides in the sacrum bone (Greeks might have known about this) and has no connection with the left or right sympathetic. Any activity which we undertake is of the left channel (subconscious mind) or right channel (conscious mind). Hence any so called attempt to raise the kundalini will result in failure as you cannot reach it via the left and right channel. Hence what people have described in their ignorance as kundalini awakening is not kundalini awakening at all. They are really going into their psychic areas in the left or subconscious area or the right side or conscious/supra conscious area and disturbing those areas – hence the insanity claims. Its like someone without knowledge of surgery slashing around someone’s viscera thinking they are trying to fix them. In this case we are slashing around in our own viscera.

As I mentioned Kundalini is coiled in the pelvic area. It really doesn’t have anything to do with the brain, unless we awaken it and bring it up to the brain. Sant Mat advises to let it lie, asleep. There is no need to awaken it to realize God. We need to deal with increasingly higher levels of reality, not lower reflections. Now about the Kundalini and its descriptions from ancient scriptures. It is shown to be a gentle energy like a mother waiting for its child to get ready so that it can give it the longed for knowledge of its roots and origins. Its tendency is to rise against the force of gravity.

Its tendency is to remain asleep, unless we try to awaken it. Its an intelligent energy far beyond the intelligence we can hope to have.

It is a lower reflection of energy meant to serve the body. Superconsciousness is at the third eye center, and above, not in the lower chakras, which are poor reflections of what is higher. It is superior to our minds – hence it is the only force which can take us beyond mind.

This is upside down, as I’ve already mentioned. The only power, which can take us beyond mind is the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit. We can get that from a Param Sant Sat Guru, and not from anyone else. It cannot be abused as it follows all the laws of natural flows of energy, correcting the imbalances in us as it flows. Being many stranded it will also rise based on the capacity of the person, its child, strand by strand. As a mothering energy it knows how to nurse its child as a mother would when we are born, gradually bringing it to maturity in its spiritual development.

Unnecessary. It will do its job. We should leave it alone. Next the parasympathetic and its real purpose. It corresponds to the central channel and comes into full play, connecting us to the present area of consciousness within ourselves after the kundalini is awakened. The left and right sides, you guessed, correspond to the past and future resp. What is the present in reality? When a thought rises and falls, there is a small moment of time (the present) before another thought rises and falls. That small moment of time is the time which corresponds to the central channel. When the Kundalini rises it takes us beyond thought and also widens the time between thoughts – thus bringing us in connection with the present (central area of our being) and also with our entire being.

There is a big difference between raising our consciousness, such as in Sant Mat, or raising the kundalini. They are not the same, at all. Consciousness can be raised without awakening the kundalini. In fact, Saints recomment that. The actualization of this happening is the manifestation of a cool breeze on the hands and above the head as described in many of the scriptures, chaitanya lahiri, cool breeze of the holy ghost etc. Look at mythological pictures where they show a fountain above the head of a meditator. Lord Buddha called it the middle path quite literally because that’s where the kundalini rises, in central channel.

Buddha must have been referring to the Sushamna Vein which we can follow to the Astral Plane, and to heavens above. Buddha was a Great Master. He knew there was no need to awaken the Kundalini, IMO. Lord Jesus Christ talks about when your eye is single your body is full of light.

Yes, he followed Sant Mat. I don’t think he has mentioned to awaken the kundalini. The singleness comes from becoming connected to the single present allowing you to see things from an absolute point of view rather than from the relative areas of the left and right sides i.e. mind and emotions. How is the Kundalini really awakened? There is single prerequisite. You must be in the presence of a realized soul or someone in whom the Kundalini is awakened.

Kundalini is just a force in the pelvic area. Realized Souls of higher degrees don’t dabble with kundalini. It is unnecessary. Next question why? Remember earlier we said that you cannot reach the Kundalini with your mind via the sympathetics. That’s why. Now if you go back two paragraphs "The actualization…" you will see it says the awakening manifests as a cool flowing breeze of energy. So in one in whom the Kundalini is awakened the energy rises pierces the fontanel bone (fountain bone – again implying some connection with Kundalini and its working) area and comes out as a fountain of energy and flows down through the brain, sympathetic nervous system (cooling and balancing it), then throughout the body and into the atmosphere via the skin, hands and feet. This energy which flows into the atmosphere is absorbed by people around and triggers the kundalini in them. Hence the need for someone in whom the kundalini is awakened. Once the awakening has taken place then it can slowly, through various practices, be brought into your conscious awareness and be raised at will.

All unnecessary for God-Realization. The last thing – what is Meditation and Yoga? Meditation is the state of being when the Kundalini is at crown chakra or Sahasrar Chakra when you are in a state of thoughtless awareness.

That is certainly not my definition of meditation. I’ve already commented on raising consciousness without dabbling with kundalini. Yoga is the state of union where your spirit is connected with the universal spirit. Both these take place when the Kundalini reaches the Sahasrar Chakra.

It can take place much more efficiently, and with much less danger, without bringing kundalini up to the brain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yoga is not the set of contortions that people put themselves through indiscriminately. The exercises were designed by ancient people because of a specific need. The need was to correct imbalances in themselves which prevented them from going deeper into meditation. The exercises were for specific problems. By the indiscriminate use of these exercise one will only bring further grief to oneself . OK you have benefited from the exercises. Know that any form of stressing, tensing and relaxing will make one feel good in the short term – but what of the long term effects. Now before you rush out to find somebody who has their kundalini raised, digest all the information thoroughly, before doing so. Ask leading questions. If they cannot answer – is it because they don’t know or have not had their kundalinis awakened. Don’t let mystery or secrecy about the whole thing stop you. Some people make it sound mysterious to avoid answering questions. Check these sites: http://www.freemeditation.com http://www.sahajayoga.org Rajen

Michael (Teacher of Surat Shabd Yoga) http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas <snip

Response:

Here’s my 2 cents worth. The Kundalini is out of reach of the mental and emotional areas of human beings. This can be substantiated by looking at the subtle system and the connections between it and the sympathetic and para-sympathetic nervous system. The functioning of the left and right sympathetics are known by medical science while little is known about the para-sympathetic. The sympathetics are the gross aspects of the IDA and Pingala channels or the left and right channels (sun and moon channels of Hatha Yoga). The right channel connects to the left brain and deals with our thinking, planning, futuristic thinking, technology etc. It also has to do with the conscious and supra conscious minds. The left channel connects to the right brain and has to do with the past, the subconscious, emotions, caring qualities, reflections, memory, the id personality etc. The Kundalini resides in the sacrum bone (Greeks might have known about this) and has no connection with the left or right sympathetic. Any activity which we undertake is of the left channel (subconscious mind) or right channel (conscious mind). Hence any so called attempt to raise the kundalini will result in failure as you cannot reach it via the left and right channel. Hence what people have described in their ignorance as kundalini awakening is not kundalini awakening at all. They are really going into their psychic areas in the left or subconscious area or the right side or conscious/supra conscious area and disturbing those areas – hence the insanity claims. Its like someone without knowledge of surgery slashing around someone’s viscera thinking they are trying to fix them. In this case we are slashing around in our own viscera. Now about the Kundalini and its descriptions from ancient scriptures. It is shown to be a gentle energy like a mother waiting for its child to get ready so that it can give it the longed for knowledge of its roots and origins. Its tendency is to rise against the force of gravity. Its an intelligent energy far beyond the intelligence we can hope to have. It is superior to our minds – hence it is the only force which can take us beyond mind. It cannot be abused as it follows all the laws of natural flows of energy, correcting the imbalances in us as it flows. Being many stranded it will also rise based on the capacity of the person, its child, strand by strand. As a mothering energy it knows how to nurse its child as a mother would when we are born, gradually bringing it to maturity in its spiritual development. Next the parasympathetic and its real purpose. It corresponds to the central channel and comes into full play, connecting us to the present area of consciousness within ourselves after the kundalini is awakened. The left and right sides, you guessed, correspond to the past and future resp. What is the present in reality? When a thought rises and falls, there is a small moment of time (the present) before another thought rises and falls. That small moment of time is the time which corresponds to the central channel. When the Kundalini rises it takes us beyond thought and also widens the time between thoughts – thus bringing us in connection with the present (central area of our being) and also with our entire being. The actualization of this happening is the manifestation of a cool breeze on the hands and above the head as described in many of the scriptures, chaitanya lahiri, cool breeze of the holy ghost etc. Look at mythological pictures where they show a fountain above the head of a meditator. Lord Buddha called it the middle path quite literally because that’s where the kundalini rises, in central channel. Lord Jesus Christ talks about when your eye is single your body is full of light. The singleness comes from becoming connected to the single present allowing you to see things from an absolute point of view rather than from the relative areas of the left and right sides i.e. mind and emotions. How is the Kundalini really awakened? There is single prerequisite. You must be in the presence of a realized soul or someone in whom the Kundalini is awakened. Next question why? Remember earlier we said that you cannot reach the Kundalini with your mind via the sympathetics. That’s why. Now if you go back two paragraphs "The actualization…" you will see it says the awakening manifests as a cool flowing breeze of energy. So in one in whom the Kundalini is awakened the energy rises pierces the fontanel bone (fountain bone – again implying some connection with Kundalini and its working) area and comes out as a fountain of energy and flows down through the brain, sympathetic nervous system (cooling and balancing it), then throughout the body and into the atmosphere via the skin, hands and feet. This energy which flows into the atmosphere is absorbed by people around and triggers the kundalini in them. Hence the need for someone in whom the kundalini is awakened. Once the awakening has taken place then it can slowly, through various practices, be brought into your conscious awareness and be raised at will. The last thing – what is Meditation and Yoga? Meditation is the state of being when the Kundalini is at crown chakra or Sahasrar Chakra when you are in a state of thoughtless awareness. Yoga is the state of union where your spirit is connected with the universal spirit. Both these take place when the Kundalini reaches the Sahasrar Chakra. Yoga is not the set of contortions that people put themselves through indiscriminately. The exercises were designed by ancient people because of a specific need. The need was to correct imbalances in themselves which prevented them from going deeper into meditation. The exercises were for specific problems. By the indiscriminate use of these exercise one will only bring further grief to oneself . OK you have benefited from the exercises. Know that any form of stressing, tensing and relaxing will make one feel good in the short term – but what of the long term effects. Now before you rush out to find somebody who has their kundalini raised, digest all the information thoroughly, before doing so. Ask leading questions. If they cannot answer – is it because they don’t know or have not had their kundalinis awakened. Don’t let mystery or secrecy about the whole thing stop you. Some people make it sound mysterious to avoid answering questions. Check these sites: http://www.freemeditation.com http://www.sahajayoga.org Rajen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many posters are simply leafleting for their own organizations. Other posters are duking it out over arcane points specific to their particular paths. Some of these contests have been going on for years in other newsgroups, and it seems that quite a bit of bandwidth in alt.meditation is taken up by the crossposts of protagonists who rarely contribute to alt.meditation for its own sake. I think most people here know by now that if they want to check out the latest round of insults between Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower, they can always glom alt.meditation.shabda. Mr. Outcast has taken upon himself to label three personalities here, myself included, with the label "insults." I would say, this is the "tip of the iceberg syndrome." Naturally, when truth is discussed, many sides will be presented, and sometimes, in a heated manner. Bruce, Jody, and I, have been going on with our discussions for over four years, now. There are many disagreements on Usenet, and they are neither confined to three individuals, nor to one NG. Sometimes "insults," are mixed with truth. Perhaps Mr. Outcast is a victim of the "throw out the baby with the bathwater syndrome?" I’ll let the readers decide. Obviously, Bruce, Jody, and I, all believe we are discussing the truth. Mr. Outcast has failed to mention our good intentions. If I see them, I’ll be sure and mention them (joke). Oops! I forgot the smiley emoticons. I should have known that rather than inspiring an amused response of "It’s sooo true!" my comment would start a flame war. For the record, I’m neutral as to whether Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower have been discussing "the truth" for four years in alt.meditation.shabda. My point was that the cross-postings seem excessive and that many of the posts, when stripped of their specialized conceptual veneer, seem to be of the "Am not. Are too!" school of debating. Perhaps Mr. Outcast does not practice the Golden Rule, which Christ mentioned? I wonder how he would like it, if I mentioned about his "main," NG, alt. yoga? The fact is, I just visited there (alt.yoga) and read an article about Howard Stern, and descriptions of vulgar language from some slang dictionary. Not very impressive to me. I think Mr. Outcast should be fair. Why should he single out one NG, and start throwing rocks at that one, when others might even be far worse? Would you care to comment, Mr. Outcast? I haven’t thrown rocks at any newsgroups. I don’t know anything about Howard Stern. There may be some posters to whom I adopt a "hands off" policy because they are obviously deeply troubled or because I don’t like to feed the trolls. I respected Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower enough to bring up the cross-posting issue in passing. I apologize if I erred in judgement. I often encourage people to read books by respected spiritual teachers. From a book you are more likely to get an in-depth perspective that includes meditation, philosophy and lifestyle from the cohesive standpoint of a single

Response:

…(snip) some people in other newsgroups may occasionally tire of seeing so many cross-posts day in and day out.

Yes (from alt.yoga)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip Try the real world, it works better for something as personal as finding a good form of medi- tation practice for yourself. A bit of advice, no more, from this old Crow I don’t think you’ve offered a convincing reason. If a True Master is available on the internet, that would be better than reading 1000 books written by False Masters, IMHO. Kabir Sahib wrote in his poems that we should try to get the darshan (sight) of the Master everyday, if possible. If we can’t always be with him, then wouldn’t an email correspondence with him, be the next best thing, from a physical plane POV? To be with him, internally, would be the next best, spiritually, but I’m referring to the next best thing in the physical plane. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru Well, here it goes again…Michael, when will you learn…Crow offered a very well written and honest bit of advice…one I’m sure most would concur with, I do…and what do you do?

I don’t think a bookstore is ALL of the real world. I think the Internet is the real world, too. Please, re-read your first paragraph…I doubt I could even find 1000 books on this topic in a book store yet…you, the great Michael Martin just trashed them all,

What are you and Crow doing? Recommending a bookstore over Masters? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I suppose trash is in the eye of the beholder, also. To each his own. Some called Christ the "King of the Jews." Others wanted to stone him. See my point? while trying to insinuate that you are some sort of Master….

I don’t think we need to trash the internet. I was discussing the Internet vis-a-vis bookstores, not my own personal spirituality. and to top it off…you finished the paragraph with IMHO…you are far gone my friend…there is nothing humble about your statement…

Is there anything humble about your public criticism of my views? Maybe you need to look in the mirror? and once again I think it need be said….YOU ARE NOT A TRUE MASTER…

Okay, Buddy. I think this needs saying again. Some wanted to stone Christ. Now, the question is, should we take your opinions, as any more credible than those who wanted to stone Christ, or those who wanted to poison Socrates? If anybody regards your definition of me as CREDIBLE, than they are not worthy of me. I have no problem with that. As I’ve mentioned, mudslingers are a dime a dozen, and they are usually desperate, because they are standing on a weak fundamental position. you are though, someone that suffers from illusions of grandeur…

I don’t think I will be what you SAY I am. LOL Why do I protest your postings so…because people like you prey on the weak…

What do you call mudslinging? Have you looked in the mirror lately? What qualifies you to define people? Especially one who has done 37 years of meditation? Let’s discuss your fundamental position. Let’s discuss spiritual issues. Anybody can throw mud. I’ve yet to see a posting from you in which you didn’t canvass for students…

At least I’m not going around throwing mud on people who have practiced a lifetime of meditation. Good Shepherds always come to collect sheep. You wouldn’t be jealous of that, would you? Walt Whitman wrote, "I will recruit with you, as we go." There is nothing wrong with collecting sheep, unless we happen to be jealous of it. Then it would indicate an ego problem. you play intellectual parlour games but offer nothing substancial…

I offer more than mudslinging, my friend. I’ll leave that to the sagacity of the readers. I’m willing to debate you, issue by issue. Are you ready to be defeated? LOL give it a rest my friend…it’s beyond me why anyone would even want to refer to himself as a guru or a master accept for gratification of their ego.

Well, it is beyond me why you come out here difining people who have devoted a lifetime to meditation? Is it your humility which motivates you to do it? Would you like to discuss the real reason? Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started to read this newsgroup to see if I could get a basic idea of the sort of support channel that was available to those who choose to meditate. I am just on the edge of looking into meditation as a means of inner knowledge and discovering what self truths and lies there may be within me and how I can learn to relax more. I did not find that I am sorry to post this but I would have thought that people posting to this group would have been a bit more supportive and hope that maybe people out there can give me some reassurance as to the benefits of this group. I would dearly love to know peoples (hopefully neutral) perspectives on the benefits and differences between Zen, Tao and a few of the Indian branches of meditation. I am not religious as such and do not really wish it to be a part of my meditation to begin with (I have a feeling I will discover an/many truths should I stick to this over the years). If anyone is able to give me and any other beginners reading this some helpful advice without causing a flaming war I would be most appreciative. [snip] Dear Jason, I’m sorry you haven’t found clear, helpful information in this newsgroup. I think you’ve correctly identified many problems. The word "group," which we use on the net day in and day out, is not always an accurate description. The older concept of "bulletin board" may be. Many posters are simply leafleting for their own organizations. Other posters are duking it out over arcane points specific to their particular paths. Some of these contests have been going on for years in other newsgroups, and it seems that quite a bit of bandwidth in alt.meditation is taken up by the crossposts of protagonists who rarely contribute to alt.meditation for its own sake. Saints share the truth with the world. Sometimes, seeds fall on barren ground. The ground is not justified saying that the sower is not thinking about the ground. The sower is doing the best he can for the ground. It is the ground’s fault, if it is not fertile. I think most people here know by now that if they want to check out the latest round of insults between Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower, they can always glom alt.meditation.shabda. Mr. Outcast has taken upon himself to label three personalities here, myself included, with the label "insults." I would say, this is the "tip of the iceberg syndrome." Naturally, when truth is discussed, many sides will be presented, and sometimes, in a heated manner. Bruce, Jody, and I, have been going on with our discussions for over four years, now. There are many disagreements on Usenet, and they are neither confined to three individuals, nor to one NG. Sometimes "insults," are mixed with truth. Perhaps Mr. Outcast is a victim of the "throw out the baby with the bathwater syndrome?" I’ll let the readers decide. Obviously, Bruce, Jody, and I, all believe we are discussing the truth. Mr. Outcast has

Response:

Well, here it goes again…Michael, when will you learn…Crow offered a very well written and honest bit of advice…one I’m sure most would concur with, I do…and what do you do? Please, re-read your first paragraph…I doubt I could even find 1000 books on this topic in a book store yet…you, the great Michael Martin just trashed them all, while trying to insinuate that you are some sort of Master….and to top it off…you finished the paragraph with IMHO…you are far gone my friend…there is nothing humble about your statement…and once again I think it need be said….YOU ARE NOT A TRUE MASTER…you are though, someone that suffers from illusions of grandeur… Why do I protest your postings so…because people like you prey on the weak…I’ve yet to see a posting from you in which you didn’t canvass for students…you play intellectual parlour games but offer nothing substancial…give it a rest my friend…it’s beyond me why anyone would even want to refer to himself as a guru or a master accept for gratification of their ego.

Response:

<snip –outcast235

Thanks for your participation in our dialogue. Best Wishes, Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru

Response:

Try the real world, it works better for something as personal as finding a good form of medi- tation practice for yourself. A bit of advice, no more, from this old Crow Fine advice it is, Crow. And not just because it seconds my opinion, but because it’s simple, clear, and straight from the heart.

Why, thank’ee, outcast. It helps to be a writer, I think; I’m used to trying hard to write straight and clear, and after a while *something* gets learned! You said a lot of things I was thinking about the Internet, but hadn’t found words for. In fact, Massimo Introvigne, a researcher into new religous movements, has even coined the term "information terrorism" to describe some of the problems.

No kidding; I’ve met Massimo Introvigne, did not know he had come up with this concept. It’s right on the money, isn’t it? And that situation will only get worse. It’s as if the loudmouths at the party keep yelling louder and louder, from more and more parts of the room, in their efforts to drown out and shut up everybody else. The only workable response I know of is a) keep talking and listening quietly with the people who have intelligent things to say, and b) try not to use the internet for purposes it cannot serve well, such as serious research and personal, spiritual guidance, without plenty of real-world work to act as a balance and corrective to the electronic spam-load. That’s my plan, anyway. Crow — Crow

Response:

What you wrote was not just an ordinary comment. It indicated that alt.meditation.shabda was noted for its insults. I happen to strongly disagree with that. It is the newsgroup with most "truth," IMO, than any of the 30,000 or so NGs on Usenet. I know that few in this world are ready for the truth, and many might agree with you. There might be a few out there, who are willing to find the highest truth however.

Michael, I’m sorry I offended you. Your discussions with Bruce and Jody do have value and are certainly appropriate to alt.meditation.shabda. I thought it might benefit your Mission to realize that some people in other newsgroups may occasionally tire of seeing so many cross-posts day in and day out. The Public Relations aspect of your Mission may benefit from taking a more low-key approach, rather than the hard sell. One can feel passionately on some spiritual issues and yet also know how to let go and laugh at oneself now and then. Christ said one need not disfigure one’s face. Anyway, I did not mean to stir up trouble, and should have been more cautious in my remarks. Are you saying that only the popular Gurus deserve our attention? I think that would be a bad mistake. Often, unpopular Gurus are much greater, than the so-called popular Gurus, or the publicized Gurus. Christ was describes as "the sone of a carpenter."

I did not use the word "respected" to mean "popular" as you imply. I explained that by "respected teachers," I mean those who have worked hard to prove that they are sincere and not at all corrupt. I also explained that "respected" means respected by the seeker who has examined the character and actions of the Guru, both through the seeker’s eyes, and to the extent possible, through the eyes of God – that is to say, from the perspective of cosmic consciousness. Under this definition, Christ on the cross was certainly a respected teacher in the eyes of those seekers who had seen him prove his sincerity, and who found his character and actions beyond reproach. A respected teacher might come under attack not because he is bad, but because he is good and challenges others to acccept a higher standard of conduct. Just because we walk into a bookstore, by a book on meditation, doesn’t mean that we will be on the pathway to God. Sometimes, False Gurus will lead us straight to Hell. I think a tip-off is money. If the True Teachings are commercialized, then we must think what is the real motive. For example, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, my parent satsang always sold books at cost, and their books are not found in any bookstore. That is another problem I have with your advice. We should think, is this author after profits, or is he doing an altruistic spiritual service, IMHO?

If someone sells a book for five dollars and makes one or two dollars profit, I don’t think this violates any ethical codes. In fact it’s "right livelihood." Of course if someone distorts the Truth in order to sell millions of books and uses the profits in a selfish way, that might be a different story. But then they would not pass the character test. What are your motives? What path do you follow? Your cut and burn policy might be raising this question in the eyes of readers. Would you like to explain what path you tout?

None, that’s exactly the point. I try and share my map of how one can choose a good teacher and path. These principles might lead someone to any number of good paths, and hopefully steer them away from some bad ones. I like to think that because I’m not hyping any particular path, but only sharing some of the high principles as I see them, this may be more beneficial. I am not a teacher, just a seeker sharing my map with fellow travelers. Again, I apologize if I offended you. But look at your response. You seem quite furious, and obsessed with proving that you are completely right to the last jot and tiddle. I get that way too sometimes, which is why I know I’m just an ordinary human being trying to become a little bit spiritual, not some great Sat Guru. I can’t be sure why Bruce and Jody have spent four years arguing with you, but I hope they do it out of love, because they see good in you and feel that your good qualities would be better expressed as a seeker than a Sat Guru. Peace. –outcast235

Response:

<snip Try the real world, it works better for something as personal as finding a good form of medi- tation practice for yourself. A bit of advice, no more, from this old Crow

I don’t think you’ve offered a convincing reason. If a True Master is available on the internet, that would be better than reading 1000 books written by False Masters, IMHO. Kabir Sahib wrote in his poems that we should try to get the darshan (sight) of the Master everyday, if possible. If we can’t always be with him, then wouldn’t an email correspondence with him, be the next best thing, from a physical plane POV? To be with him, internally, would be the next best, spiritually, but I’m referring to the next best thing in the physical plane. Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru

Response:

HEY IDIOT YOU’RE SO WORRIED ABOUT CHRISTIANS,YOU SOUND LIKE A WACK JOB FUNDAMENTALIST YOURSELF.FUKKIN IDIOT, PARENTS ARE SUPPOSED TO WATCH OUT FOR THEIR KIDS.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many posters are simply leafleting for their own organizations. Other posters are duking it out over arcane points specific to their particular paths. Some of these contests have been going on for years in other newsgroups, and it seems that quite a bit of bandwidth in alt.meditation is taken up by the crossposts of protagonists who rarely contribute to alt.meditation for its own sake. I think most people here know by now that if they want to check out the latest round of insults between Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower, they can always glom alt.meditation.shabda. Mr. Outcast has taken upon himself to label three personalities here, myself included, with the label "insults." I would say, this is the "tip of the iceberg syndrome." Naturally, when truth is discussed, many sides will be presented, and sometimes, in a heated manner. Bruce, Jody, and I, have been going on with our discussions for over four years, now. There are many disagreements on Usenet, and they are neither confined to three individuals, nor to one NG. Sometimes "insults," are mixed with truth. Perhaps Mr. Outcast is a victim of the "throw out the baby with the bathwater syndrome?" I’ll let the readers decide. Obviously, Bruce, Jody, and I, all believe we are discussing the truth. Mr. Outcast has failed to mention our good intentions. If I see them, I’ll be sure and mention them (joke). Oops! I forgot the smiley emoticons. I should have known that rather than inspiring an amused response of "It’s sooo true!" my comment would start a flame war.

I’m not flaming you. At least, that is not my intention. I’m simply offering a rebuttal. You don’t mind, if I do that, do you? What you wrote was not just an ordinary comment. It indicated that alt.meditation.shabda was noted for its insults. I happen to strongly disagree with that. It is the newsgroup with most "truth," IMO, than any of the 30,000 or so NGs on Usenet. I know that few in this world are ready for the truth, and many might agree with you. There might be a few out there, who are willing to find the highest truth however. They might be brave enough, where they won’t run away at the slightest sign of an insult. Christ said, "They don’t like me, and they won’t like you, either." Soami Ji Maharaj wrote, "It is difficult to remain in the company of Saints." This world has a history of disrespecting, torturing, and even killing the Saints. Brave souls will tolerate all insults, and disrespect, to learn the truth from the Master. For the record, I’m neutral as to whether Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower have been discussing "the truth" for four years in alt.meditation.shabda. My point was that the cross-postings seem excessive and that many of the posts, when stripped of their specialized conceptual veneer, seem to be of the "Am not. Are too!" school of debating.

If one is teaching the truth, and he has pointed out the truth many times, then what is he to do? If the lesson is not learned, then it is hardly the Master’s fault. Even Christ told his disciples, "Have I been with you so long, and still you do not know that I’m in the Father, and the Father is in me?" Perhaps Mr. Outcast does not practice the Golden Rule, which Christ mentioned? I wonder how he would like it, if I mentioned about his "main," NG, alt. yoga? The fact is, I just visited there (alt.yoga) and read an article about Howard Stern, and descriptions of vulgar language from some slang dictionary. Not very impressive to me. I think Mr. Outcast should be fair. Why should he single out one NG, and start throwing rocks at that one, when others might even be far worse? Would you care to comment, Mr. Outcast? I haven’t thrown rocks at any newsgroups.

What do you call your label of "insults?" You indicated alt.meditation.shabda.. I don’t know anything about Howard Stern.

I’m not talking about what you know. I’m talking about a NG, just as you did. There may be some posters to whom I adopt a "hands off" policy because they are obviously deeply troubled or because I don’t like to feed the trolls. I respected Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower enough to bring up the cross-posting issue in passing. I apologize if I erred in judgement.

I can’t say that the NG has never had an insult. It has had a lot of them, of course. So has AM. So has AC. So has ACM. So has AY. It was that you singled out the NG. I appreciate this attitude, however. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often encourage people to read books by respected spiritual teachers. From a book you are more likely to get an in-depth perspective that includes meditation, philosophy and lifestyle from the cohesive standpoint of a single author. Then you can read another book by an author who approaches the subject from a different tradition. You will start to get the flavor of the different traditions and begin to sense where you feel some affinity. Then you can go one step further and meet with other seekers who may already be following a spiritual path. From their character and lifestyle you will get a sense of where different paths may lead. Then, when you feel ready, you can accept a teacher. Then you use the word, "respected." That is not very helpful, is it? So many False, Greedy, Gurus have been respected, and written books. That didn’t make them True Gurus, or Sat Gurus. So, we are back to square one. We can read books, read Usenet articles, but use our own discretion, use our own intellect, to the max, and decide what appeals to us. Ultimately, what path we follow has already been decided, so we just do the best we can. In conclusion, your advice is really not very helpful, as I see it. Any one word can become a pivot point for a long debate. But I use the word "respected" because usually to be both an eastern meditation teacher and to be widely respected, a Guru must work very hard in America and show that he/she is sincere and not at all corrupt.

Are you saying that only the popular Gurus deserve our attention? I think that would be a bad mistake. Often, unpopular Gurus are much greater, than the so-called popular Gurus, or the publicized Gurus. Christ was describes as "the sone of a carpenter." We learn to respect someone by examining their actions and character through our own eyes, and to the extent possible, through the eyes of God. Some Gurus may not pass this test. Those who do are good to follow.

This would apply to authors of books, as well as authors of Usenet articles. I think a tip-off is money. If the True Teachings are commercialized, then we must think what is the real motive. For example, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, my parent satsang always sold books at cost, and their books are not found in any bookstore. That is another problem I have with your advice. We should think, is this author after profits, or is he doing an altruistic spiritual service, IMHO? Just because we walk into a bookstore, by a book on meditation, doesn’t mean that we will be on the pathway to God. Sometimes, False Gurus will lead us straight to Hell. Saints share the truth with the world. Sometimes, seeds fall on barren ground. The ground is not justified saying that the sower is not thinking about the ground. The sower is doing the best he can for the ground. It is the ground’s fault, if it is not fertile. Well, perhaps the sower has over-tilled the land.

It’s a judgment call. Some thought Christ needed to be stoned. Some thought Socrates was corrupting the Athenian youth. Your bias is apparent. Saints are throwing seeds on the land, hoping that some of them will take root in fertile soil. They will not do any tilling, unless it is requested. Please be careful about offering false allegations. Whatever you are, Michael Martin, you are certainly not a minimalist. To put it another way: If you want to catch a big fish, ease up on the line a little.

You think you’re greater? Ease up on your ego, that’s my advice. Let the fish dive deep in the ocean and get some relief from the hook for awhile.

They can do that. What makes you think they can’t do that? Every poster here has the same reason for posting. It is that someone might read the article. Everybody is throwing line and hooks in the water, if you want to be technical. To depict me as the only one fishing is grossly unfair, IMO. What are your motives? What path do you follow? Your cut and burn policy might be raising this question in the eyes of readers. Would you like to explain what path you tout? –outcast235

Michael http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/michaelmartinwesternsatguru http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/radhasoamisatsangbeas

Response:

If I see them, I’ll be sure and mention them (joke). Oops! I forgot the smiley emoticons. I should have known that rather than inspiring an amused response of "It’s sooo true!" my comment would start a flame war. For the record, I’m neutral as to whether Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower have been discussing "the truth" for four years in alt.meditation.shabda. My point was that the cross-postings seem excessive and that many of the posts, when stripped of their specialized conceptual veneer, seem to be of the "Am not. Are too!" school of debating. Perhaps Mr. Outcast does not practice the Golden Rule, which Christ mentioned? I wonder how he would like it, if I mentioned about his "main," NG, alt. yoga? The fact is, I just visited there (alt.yoga) and read an article about Howard Stern, and descriptions of vulgar language from some slang dictionary. Not very impressive to me. I think Mr. Outcast should be fair. Why should he single out one NG, and start throwing rocks at that one, when others might even be far worse? Would you care to comment, Mr. Outcast?

I haven’t thrown rocks at any newsgroups. I don’t know anything about Howard Stern. There may be some posters to whom I adopt a "hands off" policy because they are obviously deeply troubled or because I don’t like to feed the trolls. I respected Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower enough to bring up the cross-posting issue in passing. I apologize if I erred in judgement. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I often encourage people to read books by respected spiritual teachers. From a book you are more likely to get an in-depth perspective that includes meditation, philosophy and lifestyle from the cohesive standpoint of a single author. Then you can read another book by an author who approaches the subject from a different tradition. You will start to get the flavor of the different traditions and begin to sense where you feel some affinity. Then you can go one step further and meet with other seekers who may already be following a spiritual path. From their character and lifestyle you will get a sense of where different paths may lead. Then, when you feel ready, you can accept a teacher. Then you use the word, "respected." That is not very helpful, is it? So many False, Greedy, Gurus have been respected, and written books. That didn’t make them True Gurus, or Sat Gurus. So, we are back to square one. We can read books, read Usenet articles, but use our own discretion, use our own intellect, to the max, and decide what appeals to us. Ultimately, what path we follow has already been decided, so we just do the best we can. In conclusion, your advice is really not very helpful, as I see it.

Any one word can become a pivot point for a long debate. But I use the word "respected" because usually to be both an eastern meditation teacher and to be widely respected, a Guru must work very hard in America and show that he/she is sincere and not at all corrupt. We learn to respect someone by examining their actions and character through our own eyes, and to the extent possible, through the eyes of God. Some Gurus may not pass this test. Those who do are good to follow. Saints share the truth with the world. Sometimes, seeds fall on barren ground. The ground is not justified saying that the sower is not thinking about the ground. The sower is doing the best he can for the ground. It is the ground’s fault, if it is not fertile.

Well, perhaps the sower has over-tilled the land. Whatever you are, Michael Martin, you are certainly not a minimalist. To put it another way: If you want to catch a big fish, ease up on the line a little. Let the fish dive deep in the ocean and get some relief from the hook for awhile. –outcast235

Response:

[excerpts] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When I got interested in meditation myself, lo these many years ago, I went to my local used bookstore and browsed myself silly on what I found on the appropriate shelves. I liked what I read about Zen, bought some books by Alan Watts and some other (then current) mediators of this style to the West, and after trying out the techniques described I found a local Zen center where I could sign up for a few months of meditation classes. By practice, you begin to develop a sense of what’s right for you (I did, or at least I think I did!), and by reading in you chosen area you learn what further steps you might take. It’s a personal quest and a course of personal study designed for you by you, and the internet is not a very good guide; the internet is more about opinion than about information, with big problems in sorting out the one from the other. I’m a writer of fiction, and I’ve found that research done on the internet is practically useless, unless you go and back it up every time by research in the "real" world. The internet is basically a sort of foodless, drinkless, endless cock- tail party with people dropping in and out again and yakking away about whatever’s on their minds, or making annoncements that they hope will get them attention or business of some kind. Try the real world, it works better for something as personal as finding a good form of medi- tation practice for yourself. A bit of advice, no more, from this old Crow

Fine advice it is, Crow. And not just because it seconds my opinion, but because it’s simple, clear, and straight from the heart. You said a lot of things I was thinking about the Internet, but hadn’t found words for. In fact, Massimo Introvigne, a researcher into new religous movements, has even coined the term "information terrorism" to describe some of the problems. An example which I noticed in a thread concerning new religious movements is this: For every eastern Guru, there are about ten sites put up by Christian fundamentalists, atheists, or parents who regard their adult children as property, claiming that said Guru is a child-molester, a thief, and does not wash hands before leaving room. When anti-slander laws close down such sites in the U.S., mirror sites go up in other parts of the world. The "democratizing effect" of the Internet in actual practice means that kooks and cranks speak with the loudest voice – because they cook with the most spam! There are many spiritual phenomena which one will never "get" by trying to research them on the Internet, which is why your advice to look in the real world "for something as personal as finding a good form of meditation practice" is right on target. –outcast235

Response:

I started to read this newsgroup to see if I could get a basic idea of the sort of support channel that was available to those who choose to meditate. I am just on the edge of looking into meditation as a means of inner knowledge and discovering what self truths and lies there may be within me and how I can learn to relax more.

I think you got some excellent advice from Outcast; when I got interested in meditation myself, lo these many years ago, I went to my local used bookstore and browsed myself silly on what I found on the appropriate shelves. I liked what I read about Zen, bought some books by Alan Watts and some other (then current) mediators of this style to the West, and after trying out the techniques described I found a local Zen center where I could sign up for a few months of meditation classes. By practice, you begin to develop a sense of what’s right for you (I did, or at least I think I did!), and by reading in you chosen area you learn what further steps you might take. It’s a personal quest and a course of personal study designed for you by you, and the internet is not a very good guide; the internet is more about opinion than about information, with big problems in sorting out the one from the other. I’m a writer of fiction, and I’ve found that research done on the internet is practically useless, unless you go and back it up every time by research in the "real" world. Your best "support channel" is a group of people studying what you are studying. The best information is available from individuals whom you can question and interact with and form some face-to-face sense of, vis a vis your own needs. The truth is, there are no short-cuts. Is there a food co-op in your area, or a massage school, or a metaphysical bookstore? Places like this will often post messages and ads from local centers of various meditative and spiritual styles and types. Is there a Unitarian Uni- versalist Church? Those folks seem to have a pretty good handle on what’s going on in the area, and might be able to make suggestions. The internet is basically a sort of foodless, drinkless, endless cock- tail party with people dropping in and out again and yakking away about whatever’s on their minds, or making annoncements that they hope will get them attention or business of some kind. Try the real world, it works better for something as personal as finding a good form of medi- tation practice for yourself. A bit of advice, no more, from this old Crow — Crow

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I started to read this newsgroup to see if I could get a basic idea of the sort of support channel that was available to those who choose to meditate. I am just on the edge of looking into meditation as a means of inner knowledge and discovering what self truths and lies there may be within me and how I can learn to relax more. I did not find that I am sorry to post this but I would have thought that people posting to this group would have been a bit more supportive and hope that maybe people out there can give me some reassurance as to the benefits of this group. I would dearly love to know peoples (hopefully neutral) perspectives on the benefits and differences between Zen, Tao and a few of the Indian branches of meditation. I am not religious as such and do not really wish it to be a part of my meditation to begin with (I have a feeling I will discover an/many truths should I stick to this over the years). If anyone is able to give me and any other beginners reading this some helpful advice without causing a flaming war I would be most appreciative. [snip] Dear Jason, I’m sorry you haven’t found clear, helpful information in this newsgroup. I think you’ve correctly identified many problems. The word "group," which we use on the net day in and day out, is not always an accurate description. The older concept of "bulletin board" may be. Many posters are simply leafleting for their own organizations. Other posters are duking it out over arcane points specific to their particular paths. Some of these contests have been going on for years in other newsgroups, and it seems that quite a bit of bandwidth in alt.meditation is taken up by the crossposts of protagonists who rarely contribute to alt.meditation for its own sake. Saints share the truth with the world. Sometimes, seeds fall on barren ground. The ground is not justified saying that the sower is not thinking about the ground. The sower is doing the best he can for the ground. It is the ground’s fault, if it is not fertile. I think most people here know by now that if they want to check out the latest round of insults between Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower, they can always glom alt.meditation.shabda. Mr. Outcast has taken upon himself to label three personalities here, myself included, with the label "insults." I would say, this is the "tip of the iceberg syndrome." Naturally, when truth is discussed, many sides will be presented, and sometimes, in a heated manner. Bruce, Jody, and I, have been going on with our discussions for over four years, now. There are many disagreements on Usenet, and they are neither confined to three individuals, nor to one NG. Sometimes "insults," are mixed with truth. Perhaps Mr. Outcast is a victim of the "throw out the baby with the bathwater syndrome?" I’ll let the readers decide. Obviously, Bruce, Jody, and I, all believe we are discussing the truth. Mr. Outcast has failed to mention our good intentions. Perhaps Mr. Outcast does not practice the Golden Rule, which Christ mentioned? I wonder how he would like it, if I mentioned about his "main," NG, alt. yoga? The fact is, I just visited there (alt.yoga) and read an article about Howard Stern, and descriptions of vulgar language from some slang dictionary. Not very impressive to me. I think Mr. Outcast should be fair. Why should he single out one NG, and start throwing rocks at that one, when others might even be far worse? Would you care to comment, Mr. Outcast? So little about spirituality is both known and agreed upon that it’s almost inevitable you will get a wild hodgepodge of responses to any question asked. You may be imputing a group consciousness where none exists. This is *not* a group, and that’s why people can’t come together to assist you the way they do in some technical forums where more is known and agreed upon. While this may sound like a leap, the reason you can’t get good beginner’s information on meditation here is the same reason children can’t get help with prayer in school: because people can’t agree whether or not prayer is good, and if so what kind of prayer to what kind of God. Even the great spiritual figures do not appear on the surface to agree about the nature of God, Goddess, Truth, or Reality, though perhaps they do agree at some deeper level. Over the course of history, millions of people have killed each other over competing claims to spiritual truth. While Windows vs. Linux debates may sometimes lack courtesy, they have yet to break out into such open warfare. So my abstract of what you’ve learned is this: At its present stage of evolution, humanity perceives spiritual Truth so dimly that we are unable to agree about even the simplest aspects of it. Ideas about meditation, spiritual philosophy and lifestyle are so divergent that one will indeed be confused by taking a random sampling of opinions from people who hang out in alt.meditation. That’s why I often encourage people to read books by respected spiritual teachers. Mr. Outcast, you’re just taking up "bandwidth," with favoring books over the articles posted here. What is the difference, whether we are reading a "book," or we are reading a Usenet message of a "Guru." Do you think books are more trustworthy? I’ve been discussing the highest truths on these NGs, and I will be happy to discuss them vs. any "book." Truth is truth, whether it’s in a book, or in a Usenet article. Sometimes, "books," are just commercialism, just an attempt to make money, just a manifestation of greed. On the other hand, you might find the truth being offered here for free. No True Master charges for the True Teachings. Then you use the word, "respected." That is not very helpful, is it? So many False, Greedy, Gurus have been respected, and written books. That didn’t make them True Gurus, or Sat Gurus. So, we are back to square one. We can read books, read Usenet articles, but use our own discretion, use our own intellect, to the max, and decide what appeals to us. Ultimately, what path we follow has already been decided, so we just do the best we can. In conclusion, your advice is really not very helpful, as I see it. From a book you are more likely to get an in-depth perspective that includes meditation, philosophy and lifestyle from the cohesive standpoint of a single author. I wouldn’t say more likely. We have to decide what opinion to hold on authors, individually, whether they have written a book, or whether they have posted a Usenet article. Some books are practically worthless. Some have been plagiarized, corrupted, etc., etc… Then you can read another book by an author who approaches the subject from a different tradition. You will start to get the flavor of the different traditions and begin to sense where you feel some affinity. Then you can go one step further and meet with other seekers who may already be following a spiritual path. From their character and lifestyle you will get a sense of where different paths may lead. Then, when you feel ready, you can accept a teacher. The same thing can be done, reading Usenet articles. Usenet is free, also. To come back to the language of your original post: There *is* a support channel for those who choose to meditate, but it’s not a single support channel, and it’s not alt.meditation. The support channel is found primarily among those who practice a similar type of meditation or who have studied in the same school (most of whom are not hanging out in alt.meditation). One reason many people choose to learn meditation in conjunction with a school is that after wandering about on their own, they’ve discovered there is no support in society at large or among random samplings of people who meditate. So even if they find it difficult to "wear the cloth" of a particular school, they will at least hang out on the periphery and feel some sense of identification with the type of meditation, philosophy and lifestyle taught by that school. This begins to give them the support they need to integrate meditation into their lives. I’m not sure there’s really such a thing as spiritual neutrality, or whether one should seek it. The various masters have each reached the Truth by following a slightly different map, and have expressed the Truth through their differing human personalities. I’ll add that Gurus are at different levels. Some have reached the first stage, some the second, very few have reached the third. Regarding the fourth, fifth stage, and higher, they could be counted on your fingers, probably. All Gurus are not the same. All levels of truth, or spirituality, are not the same. That is very important. We should follow the Master, whom we think to be the highest. Moreover, the spiritual field is so vast that no seeker can really know the exact strengths and weaknesses of each path. That’s why learning about meditation is more like a clothing shop than a detective agency. The only way to really know Zen, or Taoism, or various types of Yoga meditation is to try them on for size! Then again, one can say it’s like a restaurant: When you are really pinched with hunger, you don’t spend years researching all the different restaurants. You find one that appeals to you, and sit down to dine. Then when you have

Response:

Saints share the truth with the world. Sometimes, seeds fall on barren ground. The ground is not justified saying that the sower is not thinking about the ground. The sower is doing the best he can for the ground. It is the ground’s fault, if it is not fertile. I think most people here know by now that if they want to check out the latest round of insults between Michael Martin, Bruce Morgen and Jody Kaliflower, they can always glom alt.meditation.shabda.

Mr. Outcast has taken upon himself to label three personalities here, myself included, with the label "insults." I would say, this is the "tip of the iceberg syndrome." Naturally, when truth is discussed, many sides will be presented, and sometimes, in a heated manner. Bruce, Jody, and I, have been going on with our discussions for over four years, now. There are many disagreements on Usenet, and they are neither confined to three individuals, nor to one NG. Sometimes "insults," are mixed with truth. Perhaps Mr. Outcast is a victim of the "throw out the baby with the bathwater syndrome?" I’ll let the readers decide. Obviously, Bruce, Jody, and I, all believe we are discussing the truth. Mr. Outcast has failed to mention our good intentions. Perhaps Mr. Outcast does not practice the Golden Rule, which Christ mentioned? I wonder how he would like it, if I mentioned about his "main," NG, alt. yoga? The fact is, I just visited there (alt.yoga) and read an article about Howard Stern, and descriptions of vulgar language from some slang dictionary. Not very impressive to me. I think Mr. Outcast should be fair. Why should he single out one NG, and start throwing rocks at that one, when others might even be far worse? Would you care to comment, Mr. Outcast? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So little about spirituality is both known and agreed upon that it’s almost inevitable you will get a wild hodgepodge of responses to any question asked. You may be imputing a group consciousness where none exists. This is *not* a group, and that’s why people can’t come together to assist you the way they do in some technical forums where more is known and agreed upon. While this may sound like a leap, the reason you can’t get good beginner’s information on meditation here is the same reason children can’t get help with prayer in school: because people can’t agree whether or not prayer is good, and if so what kind of prayer to what kind of God. Even the great spiritual figures do not appear on the surface to agree about the nature of God, Goddess, Truth, or Reality, though perhaps they do agree at some deeper level. Over the course of history, millions of people have killed each other over competing claims to spiritual truth. While Windows vs. Linux debates may sometimes lack courtesy, they have yet to break out into such open warfare. So my abstract of what you’ve learned is this: At its present stage of evolution, humanity perceives spiritual Truth so dimly that we are unable to agree about even the simplest aspects of it. Ideas about meditation, spiritual philosophy and lifestyle are so divergent that one will indeed be confused by taking a random sampling of opinions from people who hang out in alt.meditation. That’s why I often encourage people to read books by respected spiritual teachers.

Mr. Outcast, you’re just taking up "bandwidth," with favoring books over the articles posted here. What is the difference, whether we are reading a "book," or we are reading a Usenet message of a "Guru." Do you think books are more trustworthy? I’ve been discussing the highest truths on these NGs, and I will be happy to discuss them vs. any "book." Truth is truth, whether it’s in a book, or in a Usenet article. Sometimes, "books," are just commercialism, just an attempt to make money, just a manifestation of greed. On the other hand, you might find the truth being offered here for free. No True Master charges for the True Teachings. Then you use the word, "respected." That is not very helpful, is it? So many False, Greedy, Gurus have been respected, and written books. That didn’t make them True Gurus, or Sat Gurus. So, we are back to square one. We can read books, read Usenet articles, but use our own discretion, use our own intellect, to the max, and decide what appeals to us. Ultimately, what path we follow has already been decided, so we just do the best we can. In conclusion, your advice is really not very helpful, as I see it. From a book you are more likely to get an in-depth perspective that includes meditation, philosophy and lifestyle from the cohesive standpoint of a single author.

I wouldn’t say more likely. We have to decide what opinion to hold on authors, individually, whether they have written a book, or whether they have posted a Usenet article. Some books are practically worthless. Some have been plagiarized, corrupted, etc., etc… Then you can read another book by an author who approaches the subject from a different tradition. You will start to get the flavor of the different traditions and begin to sense where you feel some affinity. Then you can go one step further and meet with other seekers who may already be following a spiritual path. From their character and lifestyle you will get a sense of where different paths may lead. Then, when you feel ready, you can accept a teacher.

The same thing can be done, reading Usenet articles. Usenet is free, also. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To come back to the language of your original post: There *is* a support channel for those who choose to meditate, but it’s not a single support channel, and it’s not alt.meditation. The support channel is found primarily among those who practice a similar type of meditation or who have studied in the same school (most of whom are not hanging out in alt.meditation). One reason many people choose to learn meditation in conjunction with a school is that after wandering about on their own, they’ve discovered there is no support in society at large or among random samplings of people who meditate. So even if they find it difficult to "wear the cloth" of a particular school, they will at least hang out on the periphery and feel some sense of identification with the type of meditation, philosophy and lifestyle taught by that school. This begins to give them the support they need to integrate meditation into their lives. I’m not sure there’s really such a thing as spiritual neutrality, or whether one should seek it. The various masters have each reached the Truth by following a slightly different map, and have expressed the Truth through their differing human personalities.

I’ll add that Gurus are at different levels. Some have reached the first stage, some the second, very few have reached the third. Regarding the fourth, fifth stage, and higher, they could be counted on your fingers, probably. All Gurus are not the same. All levels of truth, or spirituality, are not the same. That is very important. We should follow the Master, whom we think to be the highest. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Moreover, the spiritual field is so vast that no seeker can really know the exact strengths and weaknesses of each path. That’s why learning about meditation is more like a clothing shop than a detective agency. The only way to really know Zen, or Taoism, or various types of Yoga meditation is to try them on for size! Then again, one can say it’s like a restaurant: When you are really pinched with hunger, you don’t spend years researching all the different restaurants. You find one that appeals to you, and sit down to dine. Then when you have tasted the food, sampled the service and know the cost, you say: "This satisfies me," or "I need something different." Perhaps in the best of possible worlds (or at some greater stage of human wisdom) there

Yoga Strength