Dear friends,   I am new participator in here and as I see many of you are writting about hatha yoga and generally about the principles and the way of yoga discipline…Its nice and interesting for me but the only way for me to learn in here is to use what I know to get to know and compare what I do not know…I m a student of tai yoga.I practise tai chi chuan exercises and taoist meditations as breathing tecniques , healing voices , inner smile ext ext…   So if you can share what you know about this subject I can learn you can learn and even you can write about your yoga practises and I can compare and learn your teaching too…   WOVVV PUMAAA I wrote many words…Does it go well? Did everybody understood ? Cause sometimes even in my own language I have difficulties to express my thoughts or it is difficult for others to understand what I mean cause of my lack of knowledge to cominucate

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correcting a wrong spelling participant.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   Dear friends,   I am new participator in here and as I see many of you are writting about hatha yoga and generally about the principles and the way of yoga discipline…Its nice and interesting for me but the only way for me to learn in here is to use what I know to get to know and compare what I do not know…I m a student of tai yoga.I practise tai chi chuan exercises and taoist meditations as breathing tecniques , healing voices , inner smile ext ext…   So if you can share what you know about this subject I can learn you can learn and even you can write about your yoga practises and I can compare and learn your teaching too…   WOVVV PUMAAA I wrote many words…Does it go well? Did everybody understood ? Cause sometimes even in my own language I have difficulties to express my thoughts or it is difficult for others to understand what I mean cause of my lack of knowledge to cominucate

What is Tai Yoga?   i have not heard of it before …

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Helloooooooo Do you know tai chi chuan? ok And there is also taoist way of yoga as breathing ways , and also healing voices , and also some iron shirt exercises… and also meditation ways…I do not want to give names who writes books on this subject cause it will be advertisement hehehehe Cause the one who writes excellent books on this subject is alive and it will be and advertisement…Use search on google…you will find….right ones and also false crazy ones… So in my opinion tai yoga is that ways…Tai chi chuan exercises….iron shirt exercises , breathing exercises…ok let me say I only know that cause I practise tai chi…I practise breathing exercises…I read some books about this subject…

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lilashi yazdi: Helloooooooo Do you know tai chi chuan? ok And there is also taoist way of yoga as breathing ways , and also healing voices , and also some iron shirt exercises… and also meditation ways…I do not want to give names who writes books on this subject cause it will be advertisement hehehehe Cause the one who writes excellent books on this subject is alive and it will be and advertisement…Use search on google…you will find….right ones and also false crazy ones… So in my opinion tai yoga is that ways…Tai chi chuan exercises….iron shirt exercises , breathing exercises…ok let me say I only know that cause I practise tai chi…I practise breathing exercises…I read some books about this subject…

Sorry there are mistakes hehehehe I correct… ‘and it will be an advertisement ‘

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So I dont want to make advertisement of his books cause some crazy ones can misunderstand!!!   If you want to learn about this subject you have to learn the way to think correct….speak corrent and write correct… My English sometimes does not allow me to explain…Find by your self okeyyy:)

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correct

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Helloooooooo Do you know tai chi chuan? ok And there is also taoist way of yoga as breathing ways , and also healing voices , and also some iron shirt exercises… and also meditation ways…I do not want to give names who writes books on this subject cause it will be advertisement hehehehe Cause the one who writes excellent books on this subject is alive and it will be and advertisement…Use search on google…you will find….right ones and also false crazy ones… So in my opinion tai yoga is that ways…Tai chi chuan exercises….iron shirt exercises , breathing exercises…ok let me say I only know that cause I practise tai chi…I practise breathing exercises…I read some books about this subject…

i am familiar with Tai Chi Chuan.  i have researched both Chen and Yang styles… On Google, the the only seemingly relevant result was this : http://www.taiyoga.net/ There is nothing wrong with recommending a book you have read…

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Try the alt.yoga FAQ homepage! http://members.xoom.com/altyoga/ Hari Har Singh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am new to yoga, I would like to take a class. Preferably one that does NOT involve me getting up before 5:00AM. Does anyone how I may find classes in my area? Thank you! Before you buy.

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Miiko, It would help more than little to know what city you are in or near; otherwise, you could start with the Yellow Pages, a search on the Net for Yoga classes in your area, maybe a visit to any herb or natural food stores, friends who have friends who do yoga…. Regards, Will – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I am new to yoga, I would like to take a class. Preferably one that does NOT involve me getting up before 5:00AM. Does anyone how I may find classes in my area? Thank you! Before you buy.

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Hi I am new to yoga, I would like to take a class. Preferably one that does NOT involve me getting up before 5:00AM. Does anyone how I may find classes in my area? Thank you! Before you buy.

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Hi, I’m extremely new to yoga, have only ever tried it once and that was with one of those stupid videos, yoga and its way of live interest me very much and i wouldnt if you could give me advice on the best way of getting started?

By being less opinionated about things you know nothing about.  In one sentence you have made numerous judgments about what yoga is.  Grow up and start again. Wade

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Well, as per my other post I am no fan of Power Yoga. If all you want to do is exercise Power Yoga is fine. Kartik already mentioned Sivanada. Kriya Yoga by Paramahamsa Yogananda is good also. Another one Kundalini Yoga is not classical hatha yoga at all but is very effective. Below are some books and web pages. Iyengar is OK too as long as its not Power Yoga. Kartik doesn’t say so but on the free book download page is also a Sivananda Site Locator world wide – http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/branches/branches.htm Kundalini Yoga Worldwide Locator page – http://www.kundaliniyoga.org/USA I recommend The Complete Illustrated Book of Yoga by Swami Vishnu Devananda – http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0517884313/ref=lib_dp_T… (Amazon.com 12.60$) Meditation and Mantras by Swami VishnuDevananda – http://www.sivananda.org/la/boutique/yogastore/books/mnm.htm (Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers) 9$ The Sivananda Companion to Yoga – http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684870002/ref=lib_rd_ss_T FCV/102-8250478-8736105?v=glance&vi=reader&img=1 (Amazon.com 11.20$) Sivananda has 44 free books you can download at – http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/download.htm (Kartik is the authority on this) Sivanada Postures on the Web – http://www.sivananda.org/teachings/exercise.htm Postures on the Web and explanations – http://www2.gdi.net/~mjm/asana.html If you want scholarly historical perspective – try The Yoga Tradition by Georg Feuerstein – http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1890772186/qid=1041125115/ sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-1700452-1948925?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 686 pages for 20$!! illustrated notebook size pages. Georg is one of the best because his book is readable – scholars tend to use 50 dollar words ever other word and are fairly snotty in attitude but his book is hard to put down. Cheapest I ever saw it. I got mine for 50$. http://www.yrec.org/yogatimetable.html Georg Feuerstein web pages For beginning yoga I don’t recommend a lot of other things I have like Hindu mysticism/scholarly works and Sanskrit stuff but if you are interested let me know. I also have a concentration and meditation doc and a pranayama doc also. Sent about 15-20 out so far. Mike Dubbeld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m extremely new to yoga, have only ever tried it once and that was with one of those stupid videos, yoga and its way of live interest me very much and i wouldnt if you could give me advice on the best way of getting started? Regards, Halle

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Hi, I’m extremely new to yoga, have only ever tried it once and that was with one of those stupid videos, yoga and its way of live interest me very much and i wouldnt if you could give me advice on the best way of getting started? Regards, Halle

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http://www.sivanandadlshq.org/download/download.htm Yoga in Daily Life This is a book with a message of hope, success in life, of peace, of bliss and of the secret of life itself. Formats: .pdf (361 k), .html (496 k) The Science of Pranayama Pranayama is an important limb in the Yoga of meditation. It is equally necessary for all in their daily life, for good health, success and prosperity in every walk of life. How it is so, is explained in these pages. Formats: .pdf (766 k), .html (905 k)* Practice of Karma Yoga How to spiritualize ones activities. The doctrine of Karma and Reincarnation is also covered. Formats: .pdf (473 k), .html (456 k) Practical Lessons In Yoga A practical but non-technical presentation of Yoga. Formats: .pdf (453 k), .html (627 k)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m extremely new to yoga, have only ever tried it once and that was with one of those stupid videos, yoga and its way of live interest me very much and i wouldnt if you could give me advice on the best way of getting started? Regards, Halle

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–      Dear Gil, I am also new to Yoga.  I started a few months ago.  I agree with the others in that you should start out by taking classes.  You need to make sure you are practicing the postures correctly so as not to injure yourself.  I found that the guided meditations with the instructor were helpful as well. One book which I found to be an excellent source of guidance has been Rachel Schaeffer’s "Yoga for your Spiritual Muscles".  She makes yoga easily accessible to anyone. She is down to earth and easy to understand.  I am now practicing yoga and meditation on my own twice daily and feel wonderful! Good luck. Ruth

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I am very interested in the practice of yoga.  Would someone explain how one gets started… Do I purchase a book?  Purchase a video?  is there a Website that I can refer to for information? Thanks for any suggestions, Gil

    I started with a hatha yoga class in college, then went to the library. I read about 40 books on several branches of yoga, then found a kundalini yoga teacher and developed my teaching ability.  Now I’m mostly practicing bhakti yoga and studying Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada’s books.     If you like to read, I would recommend a finding a good library.  There are many branches of yoga, and each brings different experiences.  A hatha class is a good way to start.  It brings good results quickly, but it’s just the beginning.  Additional reading will broaden your understanding.  I would definitely recommend sampling books on bhakti, jnana, and karma yoga branches as well as hatha and raja yogas. Paul

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This all looks very New Agey.  There is no sign here of any connection to Tradition, no parampara to guarantee authenticity of the teaching. in the relative universe nothing is absolute, thus — there is no absolute protection and and no absolute shielding.

An attitude typical of profane modern man, who does not acknowledge the all-important discernment between the Absolute and contingent that is essential to all revealed religions. In Chinese, this universal life force is called Ki, or Chi, hence, Tai-Chi.

This is erroneous Chinese.  You have confused the word for ‘prana’, Ch`i (spelled Qi in Pinyin) with the word for ‘ultimate’, Chi (spelled Ji in Pinyin).   They are two completely different words.   T`ai Chi Ch`uan (in Pinyin: Tai Ji Quan) means literally "Great Ultimate Fist," the martial art whose metaphysical dimension is the Taoist harmony of Yin & Yang. "Esse qua esse bonum est (being, as being, is good)."–St. Augustine

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Gil,         All of the above. How you start to practice yoga will depend on your inclination, and what is available to you. Ideally a beginners class is my suggestion. Try several teachers and you will find some that feel right for you.         Welcome to yoga!         peace, sandra

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Finding a teacher is the best bet.  However I have found several books which also help.  Try Richard Hittleman’s Yoga 28 Day Exercise Plan.  I have found it very helpful with my introduction to yoga as it slowly introduces you to various poses and assists in building your flexibility. Lee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am very interested in the practice of yoga.  Would someone explain how one gets started… Do I purchase a book?  Purchase a video?  is there a Website that I can refer to for information? Thanks for any suggestions, Gil

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You must find a real Guru, a teacher! You cannot learn Yoga alone.  The teacher is a must!!!!!!! Donald

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Hello fellow human being, I am very interested in the practice of yoga.  Would someone explain how one gets started… Do I purchase a book?  Purchase a video?  is there a Website that I can refer to for information?

  If you mean physical Yoga, or Asanas – sorry, I cannot assist you. Yet, if you are interested in meditation, here you are:   At The Third Circle Web Site there is a free online meditations manual, containing all the information necessary in order to practice the meditations presented there. The Web Site have been updated recently and now it presents twelve very easy, yet, quite powerful meditation. Though the explanations and instructions given are quite clear and easy to follow, should any question arise concerning the practice of those meditations — I’m available to clarify and elaborate by email. The Third Circle Web Site is located at the following URL addresses: www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5715/   (Main Site – USA) members.iol.co.il/weagle/                              (Israeli Mirror)                                    — Below is an excerpt from the introduction to the twelve meditations.                 Preface To Meditations In The Third Circle   Twelve meditations, or signposts, or aids, or means, or exercises are presented below. They are: "Relaxation", "Praying / Asking", "Shielding", "Simple Breathing Exercise (Pranayama)", "Body-Feeling Meditation", "The Silence Meditation", "The Aum Mantra Meditation", "Healing The Inner Child", "Connecting Your Future Self", "Mother Earth Consciousness", "Mother Earth Meditation" and "Peace On Earth Meditation". These are very easy and simple, yet quite powerful meditations, or exercises, or means, or aids, or signposts to any spiritual quest and journey.   These twelve meditations are included in The Third Circle (TTC), which is an opening to all-that-is and up to infinity, by self-work and out of Self-Source-of-Authority, in the quest of truth and reality, aiming at eliminating the human suffering.   As simple as they are, each one of these twelve exercises may facilitate and aid progress at any spiritual stand, from the first steps of interest and curiosity about the spiritual, or an attraction to it, and up to achieving the ultimate, supreme, attainment — Self-realization, or enlightenment.   All the meditations and exercises mentioned in this file may be practiced by self-work, that is — by following the instructions given here. All the necessary information needed to enable practicing these meditations and exercises is included in the given instructions — there is no need for any external teacher, or guide, in order to be able to practice these meditations. Nevertheless, I’m available to reply by email any question concerning the practice of these meditations that may arise.   You may choose practicing, or trying, only one of them, all of them, or any combination — at your choice. As everything in The Third Circle (TTC), there are no set rules or dogmas here. Each and every one is welcomed to exercise one’s own Self-Source-Of-Authority (SSOA), choose for oneself and take responsibility for one’s choices and their consequences. TTC presents signposts, or recommendations. What to do and how exactly to do it — is ultimately up to each and every individual.                                    — A Brief Introduction To The Twelve Meditations, Or Signposts: * Relaxation:   A very basic and simple relaxation exercise, yet, quite an effective one. Good to be practiced whenever one may be tensed, and at the beginning of every meditation.                                    — * Praying / asking:   Experience shows praying or asking to be very useful and helpful. Believing in God or not, practicing a particular religion or not, doesn’t make much difference here.   TTC is not a religion, not a part of any religion and it is not connected to any religion. Praying is very useful and helpful, regardless whether praying, or asking — God, or the universe — is done in a religious context or not. Here, in TTC, there is no religious context to praying; that is, praying doesn’t mean practicing a religion — not necessarily.   What counts here is our attitude and behavior, not any dogma or set rules. Yet, it is the individual’s choice whether to pray in a religious context or not. In our experience, praying, or asking, is very useful, regardless to whether it’s being done in a religious context or not. TTC, in the context of prayer, have no recommendation pro or con any religion.   One of the reasons that praying or asking is very helpful is that by praying or asking we direct our attention away from our small self, or ego, to a higher ideal. It serves us in widening our perspective, expanding our boundaries.   Another reason for it being beneficial is that by praying or asking we direct our attention to the desired results and goals. Directing our attention serves the flow of energy to and from the desired result or attainment. This energy flow assists in the actual attainment of our goals.                                    — * Shielding:   It is an energetic and astral grounding and shielding. Good to be practiced in any case, especially when we may feel being attacked, or drained energetically. It is a suggested protection for meditations, aiding in blocking unwanted energies and entities from entering our meditations.   Please bear in mind that in the relative universe nothing is absolute, thus — there is no absolute protection and and no absolute shielding. Ultimately, one’s free will and choices are the best possible protection — over time. Nevertheless, this shielding exercise is a recommended practice.   Some choose to practice it as a part of their daily routine, some choose to practice it as the first stage of every meditation, some choose to practice it when feeling a need, and some choose not to practice it at all. It’s up to you.                                    — * Simple Breathing Exercise (Pranayama):   Prana is the Sanskrit word for the universal life force — the force that sustains life in all living creatures. In Chinese, this universal life force is called Ki, or Chi, hence, Tai-Chi.   Pranayama – Yogi breathing exercises – is one of the eight limbs of Yoga – for the value and benefit of Pranayama is paramount. It is extremely relaxing, invigorating — it purifies the body, mind, soul and spirit.   This Simple Breathing Exercise (Pranayama) is indeed very simple and easy to practice, yet, it is highly valuable. This simple Pranayama may be practiced by itself and it may serve as an excellent preamble to any meditation and spiritual exercise.                                    — * Body-Feeling Meditation:   At times, if you may feel very tired, moody, tensed, agitated, low energies, irritated, impatient, drained out, spaced out, disconnected, the mind is not very clear, etc — it is recommended to elevate your feeling, mood or energies with the Body-Feeling Meditation.   This meditation is very effective in releasing stress and strain from our nervous system and physical body. By releasing stress and strain from the physical body and nervous system, simultaneously we are releasing mental, psychological and spiritual stress and blocks, opening our energy channels to a better flow, enabling a clearer mind and consciousness.   Another benefit of this meditation is increasing our awareness to our body.   This meditation can be practiced, upon getting acquainted with it, anytime anyplace, while walking, talking, driving etc.                                    — * The Silence Meditation:   The Silence Meditation, along The Aum Mantra Meditation, are the Jewel-Crest of all spiritual practices. Specifying all their benefits will take many pages.   In brief: they are the most effective and direct means to connect the unbounded ocean of truth and wisdom lying inside the silent chambers of our hearts. They are great aids in connecting our Higher Self and, ultimately, our Supreme Self.   This meditation is relaxing and have numerous beneficial effects on our body and mind, health, consciousness, clarity of thinking, energy level, developing our intuition, widening our perspective and expanding our boundaries.   The Silence Meditation may serve as a springboard to all other spiritual practices and exercises. It is very natural, very easy to practice. It is devoid of any connection to any teaching, tradition, dogma or religion. TTC is an opening, not a teaching.   Connecting the ocean of silence inside gives momentum to all our actions, facilitates and speeds up attaining all goals.   Ultimately, The Silence Meditation is a great aid in attaining Self-realization, or enlightenment — upon aspiring this supreme attainment.                                    — * The Aum Mantra Meditation:   The Aum Mantra Meditation, along The Silence Meditation, are the Jewel-Crest of all spiritual practices. Specifying all their benefits will take many pages.   In brief: they are the most effective and direct means to connect the unbounded ocean of truth and wisdom lying inside the silent chambers of our hearts. They are great aids in connecting our Higher Self and, ultimately, our Supreme Self.   This meditation is relaxing and have numerous beneficial effects on our body and mind, health, consciousness, clarity of thinking, energy level, developing our intuition, widening our perspective and expanding our boundaries.   The Aum Mantra Meditation may serve as a springboard to all other spiritual practices and exercises. It is very natural, very easy to practice. It is not conflicting with any teaching, tradition, dogma or religion.   Connecting the Supreme Self, or the ocean of inner silence, gives momentum to all our actions, facilitates and speeds up attaining all goals.   Ultimately, The Aum Mantra Meditation is a great aid in

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I am very interested in the practice of yoga.  Would someone explain how one gets started… Do I purchase a book?  Purchase a video?  is there a Website that I can refer to for information? Thanks for any suggestions, Gil

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I’m wondering if anyone knows good websites for beginners in Yoga.

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I’m wondering if anyone knows good websites for beginners in Yoga.

<http://mitglied.lycos.de/altyoga/ <http://www2.gdi.net/~mjm/ <http://www.iyengar-yoga.com/ <http://www.evonline.net/ — ~Stu

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Hi hank,         I recon this is a useful site, fairly comprehensive. http://www.yrec.org/publications.html I haven’t actually used it much myself, for research or education or whatever, but then again after a whole days work,dinner and a couple of hours doing asanas and general stretching and breathing to feel human again. I have about enough time left to do something other than think, or study, in the hope that it will one day make me realise what it is to be content and happy by living as a part of nature or something. Hey good luck with enjoying yoga, I wish i could do yoga all the time and not have to rush around like an idiot in this world thinking that somehow my practice and peace of mind will just happen for me or that i have something to gain.. Namaste, Om Shanti, Sri maha Shakti namah, Sat Nam! Cheers-Justin

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m wondering if anyone knows good websites for beginners in Yoga.

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Instead of asking Why don`t you try it? And then see what happens… With compassion, Puma

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Instead of asking Why don`t you try it? And then see what happens… With compassion, Puma

Puma is 100% correct.  Look around for a yoga studio and take some classes and see how asana and pranayama practice effects meditation, and most importantly your regular waking life. Yoga requires some experimentation. — ~Stu

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Hello, I was wondering if Hatha yoga works well with Zen (mindfulness) meditation. Will it affect my meditation practice in any good or bad way? Thank you

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Hi,Phyllis, why don’t you include some round of surya namaskar in your yoga schedule? hans – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, does anyone have any recommendations for a vigorous cardiovascular yoga workout? I have practiced yoga off and on for several years and normally run to get my cardio workout b/c most yoga workouts I’ve done don’t seem to match running for helping to break a sweat and get my heart rate up. Unfortunately, my knees are bad right now, so I can’t do any running, biking, elliptical, etc. workouts. So, at this point, I’m looking for a very vigorous power yoga type of DVD that’s not too hard on the knees. I tried Baron Baptiste’s video but didn’t find that I broke much of a sweat. I’d really apprediate any suggestions. Thanks!

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Hi, does anyone have any recommendations for a vigorous cardiovascular yoga workout? I have practiced yoga off and on for several years and normally run to get my cardio workout b/c most yoga workouts I’ve done don’t seem to match running for helping to break a sweat and get my heart rate up. Unfortunately, my knees are bad right now, so I can’t do any running, biking, elliptical, etc. workouts. So, at this point, I’m looking for a very vigorous power yoga type of DVD that’s not too hard on the knees. I tried Baron Baptiste’s video but didn’t find that I broke much of a sweat. I’d really apprediate any suggestions. Thanks!

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Did you ever think about adding cardio in addition to weight training in your routine? How long do you weight train for? I would add some cardio in the same days you do weight training. Or better yet, try circuit/interval training which consists of aerobics and weight lifting in different sessions or intervals. Like 10 minutes of cardio, 10 minutes of lifting. I think the reason you are bulking up is because you aren’t burning enough glycogen or fat for a more leaner physique. However, since you are a female, you shouldn’t bulk up TOO much since we don’t have that hormone called "testosterone." Pilates is also great for the lower body. I used to take ballett classes when I was younger for about 7 years so I know how you feel, kinda like "not feminine." When I first considered weight training I was like "No way, I don’t want to look all bulkey." But I ended up buying an interval training tape after having my 2 year old since it was called "Weight Loss" workout that included light weights, and I started noticing some muscles coming out….I thought they looked pretty good. So I ended up buying the Firm videos and I love them. But I learned to incorporate a higher ratio of cardio versus weight training though. I didn’t think I would like having some muscles but now I do, and my husband thinks it’s sexy.  I try to do yoga at least once or twice a week so…. I don’t know, I’d give more cardio a try or interval training. I couldn’t help to respond to your thread cause I know how you feel.

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I have been doing yoga on and off for about 3 years now and about a year ago I added weight lifting as well. I lift weights for for about six weeks then I have to stop because I just feel so uncomfortable and stiff, I stretch after every workout but I still feel very bulky. I was a ballet teacher for many years so I understand the importance of stretching the muscles, I just feel like I never get a good full stretch in while I am lifting weights, this is why I always go back to yoga I love how it makes me feel I have a small frame and tend to be on the thin side, even though yoga doesn’t give me a whole lot of muscle definition it seems to ease tension and make me feel very flexable. Has anyone experienced anything like this, (the feeling of being bulky). I want to prevent osteoprosis that is why I started to lift weights in the first place but it makes me feel awful, will yoga be enough to help prevent this. Any advice would be appreciated Thanks

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I’ve practised asthanga vinyasa for a while, and are now playing with the thought of doing a yoga teaching education in India. I know very little about yoga theory and the different types of yoga, and in my serarch of finding the right place for me to do that education I would very much like to get a overview of the different types of yoga. How many types of yoga is there? What is the main difference between them? What is the diffenence between hata yoga and asthanga yoga? I would appreciate if someone would give me a short theoretical introduction and an overwiew of the different kinds of yoga. I also appreciate any advice for relevant litterature. My best Ca

I’m not sure where you have gotten this "knowledge" from but Shri Mataji has never said any of these things. Maybe you are thinking of some of other guru calling herself Mataji as there are others.

I have seen her in the hotel conferans room… Firstly Kundalini does go through the spine. If you would take the time to experience you would see for yourself. There’s no use for me to get into technical details, because i am no scientist to prove this(even evidence of Sahaja Yoga has been proved in medical journals). But i can say from my own experience i have felt pulses physically through my spine and also coolness around the area of my spine where kundalini travels through.

Any body claims that KUNDALINI moves thru the spine,this clearly shows that she/he does not know about KUNDALINI// You should give the names of the MEDICAL JOURNALS their numbers,years and pages… What you experience is not KUNDALINI it is the hipnotised mind of yourself by Mataji.. I have seen many people like yourselve,they allsay the samething but KUNDALINI RISE is not what you think…IT is within the SUSHUMNA NADI,IDA and PINGALA nadis are within the PRANAMAYA COSHA,that is within PRANIC BODY…NOT in the physical body… Second Shri  Mataji doesn’t pronounce herself as a healer..many people have been cured from just being around her and people are cured by their Kundalini being awakended. It just happened. You must have assumed she said this. As for being a wheel chair..just because a person uses a wheel chair how does this prove that someone can’t heal another person? Again you have some expectation how things should be. Doesn’t prove anything.

If aperson is ill he/she first will attempt to heal herself/himself first…Not the others… Third you have assumed that there is some structure for how yoga should be and how it is supposed to be..which has never existed. If someone is born realised, they are born realised. If you don’t want to try to see without judgements who this person is then you must have some agenda to try to distort reality in how you would like to believe.

YOGA is the name of an act that a LINEAGE of GURUS required…. That is for insatnce I can not claim that thaere is an ZUMA YOGA as zuma may be the name of a person as in the case ofMATAJI, but if he/she does not have any previous guru,its yoga is a false one… Fourth she has said kundalini is in both the sushumna nadi and spine as they are linked up.

Spine is an ANOTOMIC reality but sushumna is not.. How these two completely different things will be related to each other!!!! Also how do you think you know how the kundalini is in that part and acts in this way? I cant honestly say i don’t know the full details for it.

If you do not know it, please do not talk on it!!!!! I can only say i experience it every day and know it’s awakened and working within me as i feel it.

What is working within your mind is MAtajis` spell,that is it nothing else…  If you are saying i read it from this book or this source has said it..how do you know for yourself?

 I am applying Hatha Yoga for more than 20 years..So please let me know a bit about it… Fifth Shri Mataji has given people by the thousands all at once the experience of Self Realisation.

If Mataji really knew what self realisation waa she would not attemp to cheat poor people…  This has been verified by the people who tried it. It was not difficult and completely effortless.

They are all under Matajis` spell that is she has put them under the hypnotised state,including you… I would like to ask you how you know what enlightenment is? What are your experiences? What do you think enlightenment is and how would you be able to tell who is enlightened and who is not?

get it?? I would advise you  before you start judging people and things,  you should reach the state of depth you condemn other people not to have to see for yourself what is the truth.

Before advising me on KUNDALINI and on Enlightenment or on Matajis` actions, you should study all these by yourself without being under the effect of others…. With compassion, Puma – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sincerely Jason

Response:

No one knows exactly what kundalini is, not even the "great masters." People know how it feels, but not what it is objectively and exactly. The Eastern religions and traditions are not science.  They are based on intuition and feeling, not objective testing, which is not enough to prove such a complex issue.   I now suspect kundalini may be mainly a brain phenomena. —— see below—– My unproven theory about the hara      My totally unproven theory is that the hara is a nerve bundle located within the brain, not inside the belly.  A corresponding area exists in the belly, possibly part of the enteric nervous system, but the hara that we feel is actually a bundle of cells located inside the human brain.  We all feel our bodies indirectly through the brain, which forms an analog image of our physical body via a complex patterns of nerve cells located within the brain.  When you stub your toe you do not feel your injured toe directly.  What you actually feel is the neural analog image of your toe sending your consciousness intense signals of pain.  Thus, if you sever the neural lines of communication between your toe and your brain by cutting your spinal cord you will feel no pain at all, not even if your toe is completely crushed. Amputees who have a leg cut off often feel a "phantom leg," which is just the neural analog image of their physical leg still active and sending out signals within the brain.  We all live in our brains and the brain is all we really know of our personal self and the universe.      When you concentrate on the hara point it is like going to the basement of your brain, the most fundamental level of the brain’s consciousness where all the major switches are located.  You can run around your house turning off lights one by one, or you can go to the basement and just turn off the main circuit breaker with far less effort.  In the same way, by resting in the hara center you can more easily turn off thoughts.  Speaking more accurately, you can ignore thoughts altogether, like a flock of noisy birds flying overhead. Going to the hara center slows down the thought process and can even bring it to an absolute halt.      J. Krishnamurti’s method was to observe thoughts and by doing so increase awareness.  The more you use awareness the stronger it grows in the same way your muscles grow with the stimulation of exercise.  My own preferred method is to drop the thinking process directly and immediately by going to the hara center and simply relaxing there. When centered in the hara cosmic consciousness comes easily and naturally.      Subjectively, my own hara feels like a magnet for cosmic energy. I get the sensation of being filled up with the universe as an ocean flowing into a quiet pool of water.  The distractions of the ordinary tasks of living draw me away from the hara center and up from the depths of meditation into the pragmatic thinking centers of the brain. Thus, I am still just student of meditation who needs to spend time every day in formal meditation sessions to keep myself centered in that sensuous and quiet center of the hara.      The sensation of going to the hara center is one of falling into a warm and friendly space which is somehow associated with the belly. The hara’s association with the belly may be due to the fact that gaining nourishment is the most essential task of survival and our brains and consciousness evolved from less complicated forms of life that were almost entirely food oriented.  What better place to locate the fundamental control center of consciousness than at the belly’s analog image point located within the brain.      If you shift your personal center of gravity from the thinking center down to the hara center of the brain, you will feel a pleasing orgasmic sensation in the hara and a refreshing wind like energy that rises upward.  When you move your attention to the hara, the thinking centers slow down and the brain saves the chemical energy it must expend to create new thoughts.  The more chemical energy the brain stores up in the form of neurotransmitters, the higher and more blissful the meditator feels. ——- This discussion of the hara is part of "Meditation Handbook" at: http://home.att.net/~meditation/MeditationHandbook.html Christopher Calder

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Grin, First we have a round slightly tilted good sized thin blue disc (thin) as the/a beginning susuhunama, (inside skull eyelevel-ish). This upon looking down dropping the chin exhaling and shock results in finding oneself IMMEDIATELY at the bottom left front in front of the spine (also earths core). We basicly splt 2D via dropping across the center of the susuhunama or a 2D plane a thin flat obgect became 3D gaining length. The distance best seen as color the disc blue the area below it the mulahara red/orange so going from blue as a prism blue to the lower red via 2D then comming out 3D (D= dimension). Next the upward lifting FORCE ,(comes from field now opened) or kundalini has the distance now created from before to travel upward in yet thats from point susuhunama to point mulahara…….being far to short to re-enter the skull thru the hole of shiva  along the saraswati going up the now in existence brahma nadi. Hence that saying kundalini lays coiled 3 times at the base of the spine. 1 is down 2 is up, (now twice as much) then 3 it "jumps" like a snake using its doubled length or volume (planes volumes forces lengths particles distance)…….kundalini is clear invisible yet as it goes from 2D to 3D it will also go from 3D to 4D as in the WHISTLING MUSICAL SARASWATI/grin. halo/nimbus then a thunderbolt then is caught via the left foot results in an egg then leaves the top of the head again the same ever changing creation from the thin blue disc (virgin ma-ri/y for the fundamentalists) . Then as the concentric system turns magnetic north the two figures sparkley and smokey (cautes & cautopathes) and still going the year after year after samadhi the immediate present opens above the head as i call three above the head the new point results then nirvana or diamond body and finally a few months  later merging or 12 thirteen yeas gone. Except i use cyclic time a days a year then jan again creeps up on feb as its feb brightest hour mywork as augustus feburarious. So kundalini can re-assimulate (as a tree ring to itself). (fields forces evolution of such or incarnations/resurections of a merged personality as the personality is easily saved in samadhi later same math same celestial events again it goes if alls to be good). This little adventure was the double dec 24th eclipses of year 1954 and y2k that dec 24th eclipse or two with 1 lifetime (reproduction features ) creating a larger newer celestiial pattern unlike often just one eclipse year (the demigods refer too).   The readers should realize that my extensive library was sold for  8k dollars or its cost and insurance not near its real maket value, Therefore my writing is very few and far between as no reference material in case needed ( imentioned it was going before and things were ending). Soon i hope to sell my two holdings in real estate travel again some (200k and 52K asking in cash). I bought 10 acres exactly next to a college in case i wished to become a Dr or learn writing …..so i could subdivide build sell 1 of 4 custom homes at 500K- 650k  take that go to school but medicine makes me constantly disgusted hence i find it hard to follow thru. Lucky find one day. UPWARD LIFTING FORCE or kundalini has a great amount of UPWARD LIFTNG as in 3 above the head its poking right out thru present time reality into all thats been manifest later captures nirvana all from that thin blue disc that first distance in dimensions once uncoiled it finally merges the field closes a little more complex as now having some of the unmanifested manifested. The nimbus/halo/samadhi only a moment in the bright hour of a Feb day the rest predictable also cut nicely along the days hours and years to the moon/sun as precise as a stone cutters work.. Note: The solistice is has nothing to do with christianity except they keep trying century over century to bind it to thier ideas but isnt otherwise found there-in the story. I dont find it flattering. Yet the work of augutus and feburarious in rome with thier debate on the roman calendar i do find revealing for without that it was a worthless calendar. Smile , J (english Glyph for kundalini is J/j one with . for nimbus one stops at saraswati only one way not two of course)

Response:

Firstly Kundalini does go through the spine.

It doesn’t. There are cool and warm currents all over the body (in the soul). When we keep our attention anywhere at our body, we become aware of the cool breeze there (if one looks more carefully one can find the warm currents too). When the attention is kept in the brain, it is felt there, and that’s where the Kundalini meditation is working. If you would take the time to experience you would see for yourself.

Not everyone’s Kundalini gets awakened, and many won’t feel it at all even when they get it; just the loads on the fingers if even that. There’s no use for me to get into technical details, because i am no scientist to prove this(even evidence of Sahaja Yoga has been proved in medical journals). But i can say from my own experience i have felt pulses physically through my spine and also coolness around the area of my spine where kundalini travels through.

I have never felt any pulses on the spine. Second Shri  Mataji doesn’t pronounce herself as a healer..many people have been cured from just being around her and people are cured by their Kundalini being awakended

People don’t get healed by being around her, period. The Kundalini does not cure either, it just gives the stronger middle channel, that then helps one to get better, and one can use the Kundalini to balance oneself, but all curing is about as normal as with anyone else who takes care of his balance. The Kundalini and the middle channel are just something extra. It just happened. You must have assumed she said this. As for being a wheel chair..just because a person uses a wheel chair how does this prove that someone can’t heal another person? Again you have some expectation how things should be. Doesn’t prove anything.

She is as human as anyone else. No one who is in human body is nothing but human. She just has the awakened Kundalini like all so many other people, that’s all. Third you have assumed that there is some structure for how yoga should be and how it is supposed to be..which has never existed. If someone is born realised, they are born realised.

That’s just being in meditation as a witness; that’s called realization, while you just mean the Kundalini awakening, that’s not realization though in meditation one will so be, using the Kundalini for it this time. If you don’t want to try to see without judgements who this person is then you must have some agenda to try to distort reality in how you would like to believe.

You too, as I explaned. Fourth she has said kundalini is in both the sushumna nadi and spine as they are linked up. Also how do you think you know how the kundalini is in that part and acts in this way? I cant honestly say i don’t know the full details for it.

It’s just what you see and experience, nothing else. You are some rare case that has some spine problems or something, no it’s not related. I can only say i experience it every day and know it’s awakened and working within me as i feel it. If you are saying i read it from this book or this source has said it..how do you know for yourself?

What you feel is true, but the book is something you need to get rid of and see for yourself. Fifth Shri Mataji has given people by the thousands all at once the experience of Self Realisation. This has been verified by the people who tried it. It was not difficult and completely effortless. I would like to ask you how you know what enlightenment is? What are your experiences? What do you think enlightenment is and how would you be able to tell who is enlightened and who is not?

One who has the cosmic awareness is called the enlightened one, while then there was that meditation realization about being a witness of the mind, and then there’s the Kundalini awakening that gives birth to a stronger middle channel and the nervous system gets so called enlightened that results for one to feel any load or problems on the chakras, that are realted to different parts of the body and its meridians as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I would advise you  before you start judging people and things,  you should reach the state of depth you condemn other people not to have to see for yourself what is the truth. Sincerely Jason

Response:

I’m not sure where you have gotten this "knowledge" from but Shri Mataji has never said any of these things. Maybe you are thinking of some of other guru calling herself Mataji as there are others. Firstly Kundalini does go through the spine. If you would take the time to experience you would see for yourself. There’s no use for me to get into technical details, because i am no scientist to prove this(even evidence of Sahaja Yoga has been proved in medical journals). But i can say from my own experience i have felt pulses physically through my spine and also coolness around the area of my spine where kundalini travels through. Second Shri  Mataji doesn’t pronounce herself as a healer..many people have been cured from just being around her and people are cured by their Kundalini being awakended. It just happened. You must have assumed she said this. As for being a wheel chair..just because a person uses a wheel chair how does this prove that someone can’t heal another person? Again you have some expectation how things should be. Doesn’t prove anything. Third you have assumed that there is some structure for how yoga should be and how it is supposed to be..which has never existed. If someone is born realised, they are born realised. If you don’t want to try to see without judgements who this person is then you must have some agenda to try to distort reality in how you would like to believe. Fourth she has said kundalini is in both the sushumna nadi and spine as they are linked up. Also how do you think you know how the kundalini is in that part and acts in this way? I cant honestly say i don’t know the full details for it. I can only say i experience it every day and know it’s awakened and working within me as i feel it. If you are saying i read it from this book or this source has said it..how do you know for yourself? Fifth Shri Mataji has given people by the thousands all at once the experience of Self Realisation. This has been verified by the people who tried it. It was not difficult and completely effortless. I would like to ask you how you know what enlightenment is? What are your experiences? What do you think enlightenment is and how would you be able to tell who is enlightened and who is not? I would advise you  before you start judging people and things,  you should reach the state of depth you condemn other people not to have to see for yourself what is the truth. Sincerely Jason

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Ooops, Sorry but sahaja is not a yoga at all. It is a fake occupation…It can easily be seen from your explanation that KUNDALINI has no place through the SPINE. As this SHAKTI definitely acts within SUSUMNA NADI,which is not  a physical channel… Mataji is cheating ,saying that she heals the ill people…Actually she herself needs a healer,as she is within the wheel chair, because she is lying… Any act to be called  YOGA, it requires its order of GURUS. Mataji has no previous GURUS… She herself says that she is the one who invented this false act. Mataji has no info regarding KUNDALINI at all. As a proof she even does not know that KUNDALINI is within SUSUMNA NADI …She thinks kundalini through SPINE..KUNDALINI IS WITHIN PRANIC BODY. NOT IN PHYSICAL BODY… And Mataji  also  says that she can deliver ENLIGHTENMENT to people just like giving any solid object…She even do not know what enlightenment is… Please be informed that,any sharlatan can not satisfy the people who are after the TRUTH! With compassion, Puma

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 I invite you all to try Sahaja Yoga. It is a meditation taught with the purpose of experiencing Self-Realization. In this process the Kundalini of the person is raised through the spine and pierces the top of the head. One can feel this tangibly as a cool breez above the head and on the hands. Also the person reaches a state of thoughtless awareness. This practice has been replicated by thousands in over 80 countries around the world started by the founder Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi. All it requires is a few minutes, an open mind, and a desire to have this awakening. Come try this short excercise at our web site to see the potential within you. http://www.sahajayoga.org/experienceitnow/default.asp

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:: ::My GAD is on the rise and I get chest pains at home too, something ::that has never happened before. :: ::Whar are simple ways to combat this? :: ::Thanks in advance, Dear Sunlil, It’s important to explore possible triggers for the increase in anxiety. Is there any stress at home? I suggest the first thing you do is have a thorough checkup from your doctor. You want to make sure the chest pains at home are anxiety-related. An increase in meds and/or some therapy may prevent this from spiraling out of control. Take care and feel better soon! Jackie ~*~We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality~*~  ~Seneca — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Thanks Bob, I did some yoga breathing and the chest pains disappeared! Sunil in India – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello all, My GAD is on the rise and I get chest pains at home too, something that has never happened before. Whar are simple ways to combat this? I assume you have been checked by a doctor and your health is OK. I get chest pains from acid indigestion. Try eating bland food and taking over-the-counter antacids. Exercise helps to calm me. I like walking but find a peaceful place like a park or a quiet street. If you can’t find that, you can do exercise in your home. I use an exercise bicycle or an aerobic step ( something where you can step off and on ). Consider meditation. Do a search on this newsgroup for ‘mindfulness’ . I have recently been reading the book, ‘Full catastrophe living’ by Jon Kabat-Zinn (poor title but a decent book). Other books have been recommended here. Bob

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hello all, My GAD is on the rise and I get chest pains at home too, something that has never happened before. Whar are simple ways to combat this?

I assume you have been checked by a doctor and your health is OK. I get chest pains from acid indigestion. Try eating bland food and taking over-the-counter antacids. Exercise helps to calm me. I like walking but find a peaceful place like a park or a quiet street. If you can’t find that, you can do exercise in your home. I use an exercise bicycle or an aerobic step ( something where you can step off and on ). Consider meditation. Do a search on this newsgroup for ‘mindfulness’ . I have recently been reading the book, ‘Full catastrophe living’ by Jon Kabat-Zinn (poor title but a decent book). Other books have been recommended here. Bob — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hello all, My GAD is on the rise and I get chest pains at home too, something that has never happened before. Whar are simple ways to combat this? Thanks in advance, Sunil — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I spent an evening with a prominent neurosurgeon on Tuesday night discussing all kinds of things relevant to whatever is the topic of the day-one one of the things he said to me was," I have watched surgeries done by all kinds of specialists for 20 years, It frankly scares the shit out of me if I ever need to have my life saved by the hands of someone else. The stuff they leave behind, the inadequecy, the margin of human error is enormous. It is a wonder why more cancer patients don’t die earlier"  I have fought  battles against my fraternity throughout my career, most often only to alienate myself from others. I am by no means perfect or the best thing to ever have happened-but our system is flawed and its participants equally flawed. We have been trained to believe that medicine is our savior-we need to believe this or the sense of our own mortality is questionable at their hands. That t.v. commercial for Syms in this area where they claim,’ An educated consumer is our best customer" is the mantra we all need to heed. I have known a handful of really fine physicians in all practices of medicine-statistically considering all I have met an known, that is pretty scary. One of my first jobs was as a director of patient services for both inpatient and ambulatory psych pateints at a major hospital. My job was to oversee their diagnosis and treatment by the professional staff-it was a comedy of errors with disgraceful outcomes for too many patients-my battle began there. In retrospect, what goes on today makes then look like good medicine. Very few truly understand what an anxiety disorder feels like, or what the medications doled out feel like. Very few see why and how therapy doesn’t offer more then some fleeting moments of clarity and what to do about it. The lack of devotion, the lack of proper training, the lack of empathy and platitudes of excuses we accept in their defense has made me a very grumpy and impatient person-just like all of the posts I have read from people who want to know why they just feel lousy and fall into the hands of abusive incompetency, I wonder the same. I feel for anyone who needs to find help for themself in the morass of our health care system, or any other health care system worldwide for that matter. It can be very disheartening and frustrating.

Hi Margrove, Your perspective makes a lot of sense to me. I guess what bugs me most is the lack of openness that I often encounter with doctors and therapists. A few examples include: * Withholding diagnosis. Of the many doctors during my first years of panic disorder, one admitted in writing withholding the diagnosis and most had no comment. Panic disorder had been listed in the DSM for more than a decade before my symptoms began. * Recommending meds or therapies which had already proven ineffective or harmful in my case. This indicated a lack of understanding of either the treatment or my own case history. * Withholding treatment options. I was once denied access to a CBT program because I wouldn’t agree to a questionable change in meds. Also, many known options were never brought up until after I explicitly asked about them. The overall theme seems to be that diagnosis and treatment is often grossly influenced by unproven pet theories, blind application of protocol, desire to conduct clinical trials or simply protecting careers. I get particularly offended by such practices because I have tried very hard to work ‘with’ my doctors and therapists. Even in cases where I could have sued for malpractice, I chose not to because I felt it would hurt chances for forming cooperative relationships with other clinicians. Unfortunately, they rarely return the favor. I can accept that there is much uncertainty about our conditions and how to treat them, I just wish more clinicians were open about this and didn’t exercise so much conscious omission. One of the reasons I respect you so much is that you are open and honest about these things. Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi Gary; I think I might have a copy of pourpose drive life around here somewhere, I just got a new book shelf for downstairs a couple days ago, (donated from someone down the street) so I will be moving many books downstairs. I am prettty lost still with what I want to do.  I have been in the day treatment program for like 4-5 weeks now, and I sitll can figure out what to do with my career.  However I did meet amy in the program, so that makes it all worth while!!… I did several of thoes skills assesment tests online, and it comes up with things like pschycolgist, nursing, writer, etc.  Things that normally need a lot of schooling.  Amy is almost done with 4 years of collage for writing, then she is doing like 2 years of undergrad, and 2 years of grad… Yikes, lots of school,,, almost like being a doctor,, 8 years,,, still a few years short… I wish I had a clue as to what to do….  How the heck do I figure it out??? I though about going back to doing marketing work, and working for myself,,  but I am not positive that I want to do that. Jamie — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Hello; Thank you for taking the time to explain the whole schooling process to me.  Recently I have been in a outpaient day treatment program (Daily for almost 4 weeks), that I went to primary for anxeity.  The people there have a varity of issues, ranging from depression to disorders with psychosis.   I observed how many of them were being very poorly treated for even basic problems like depresion.  They were on medications that they knew were not working, and they were activly sucidial.  Many of them had expressed there concerns to there doctors, and there doctors left them on the same medicine anyway.  They often were never even tried on multiple ssri’s much less ssnri’s, tca, maoi’s, etc.  Some of them are on such high doses of things, they can barely function, while this can be necessary in some cases, some of these people can barely live anymore because of the side effects of the medication, and there doctors are not even willing to attempt to make changes to there meds.  and the problems go on….  I also see some paients that have pretty serious issues that are still seeing only a primary care doctor, and some are trying to find a pdoc but can not or the wait is months long to see a pdoc.  There are people on 5,6,7,8 meds or more that are still so depressed they try to kill themselves all the time, and instead of ever making any changes in the meds, the doctos keep adding more meds to the mix.  YIKES!!! This in the reason that my intrest in medicine has been brough forward even more than it has in the past.  I see the very real need for more help for paients, and I can understand there suffering, atleast to an extent, even though I of course have not experiences all of the problems that everyone I have seen and talked to has.  I know that I could help these people if I learned some more about treatment and the medications.  I just wish there was some way around all of the schooling or there was some other useful way I could help people. I hate to admit it, but I think you are right that the schooling may very well be way too overwhelming for me to handle.  I may just lack the aptitude to handle more schooling espically the type of schooling that you are descrbing. All that being said…  I don’t know if there are any other options that you can think of that would allow me to be in a area where I could use my intelligence, and make a meaningful difference in paients lives… I am being strongly encourged by my doctors, and the group thearpy to start to find a career, and make some goals. (My nuero-pschyc recomends that I become a professor so that I can debate in a collage setting, and have a place where I can learn all the time, and be a little off beat, and no one will mind….)  I am finding that I either have to be self employed, go back to school or work a very low wage job.  In this area from what I can see, most untrained people are making a whoping $6-$8 per hour.  Not nearly enough for me to live on, and I think in many of these enviroments, I would get anxious and frustrated, and it would be quite difficult. Thanks again, Any other though on a career are welcome. Jamie — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Jamie:  I have no idea what other people think on this matter, or if my own observations/thoughts coincide with those most prevalent, but I have some very priceless and fond recollections of some of the times in life when I only DID make 3 dollars an hour.  That isn’t to say that poverty buys happiness; obviously it doesn’t.  I’m only suggesting that – well actually I’m just plain telling you:  You will get anxious and frustrated on occasion, no matter where you work, and no matter how much, or how little they pay you.  Knowing that, pick a job based on what brings you joy, if you possibly can.  Neither poverty NOR wealth will buy happiness (although some feel wealth will at least put a down-payment on it). Active pursuance of a career might very well bring an end, or at least a diminution of some of the symptoms that you take medicines for, rendering them less able to interfere with your cognition.  And, if they are helping your cognition, it’s not an issue at all.  I noticed that you thought that you’d be anxious in certain jobs, how do you interpret that thought, in terms of your psych treatment at present? Gary ps:  I’m hearing that "The purpose-driven life", which I think is on the bestseller rack right now, is not a bad book to take a look at.  Just a thought.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello; Thank you for taking the time to explain the whole schooling process to me.  Recently I have been in a outpaient day treatment program (Daily for almost 4 weeks), that I went to primary for anxeity.  The people there have a varity of issues, ranging from depression to disorders with psychosis.   I observed how many of them were being very poorly treated for even basic problems like depresion.  They were on medications that they knew were not working, and they were activly sucidial.  Many of them had expressed there concerns to there doctors, and there doctors left them on the same medicine anyway.  They often were never even tried on multiple ssri’s much less ssnri’s, tca, maoi’s, etc.  Some of them are on such high doses of things, they can barely function, while this can be necessary in some cases, some of these people can barely live anymore because of the side effects of the medication, and there doctors are not even willing to attempt to make changes to there meds.  and the problems go on….  I also see some paients that have pretty serious issues that are still seeing only a primary care doctor, and some are trying to find a pdoc but can not or the wait is months long to see a pdoc.  There are people on 5,6,7,8 meds or more that are still so depressed they try to kill themselves all the time, and instead of ever making any changes in the meds, the doctos keep adding more meds to the mix.  YIKES!!! This in the reason that my intrest in medicine has been brough forward even more than it has in the past.  I see the very real need for more help for paients, and I can understand there suffering, atleast to an extent, even though I of course have not experiences all of the problems that everyone I have seen and talked to has.  I know that I could help these people if I learned some more about treatment and the medications.  I just wish there was some way around all of the schooling or there was some other useful way I could help people. I hate to admit it, but I think you are right that the schooling may very well be way too overwhelming for me to handle.  I may just lack the aptitude to handle more schooling espically the type of schooling that you are descrbing. All that being said…  I don’t know if there are any other options that you can think of that would allow me to be in a area where I could use my intelligence, and make a meaningful difference in paients lives… I am being strongly encourged by my doctors, and the group thearpy to start to find a career, and make some goals. (My nuero-pschyc recomends that I become a professor so that I can debate in a collage setting, and have a place where I can learn all the time, and be a little off beat, and no one will mind….)  I am finding that I either have to be self employed, go back to school or work a very low wage job.  In this area from what I can see, most untrained people are making a whoping $6-$8 per hour.  Not nearly enough for me to live on, and I think in many of these enviroments, I would get anxious and frustrated, and it would be quite difficult. Thanks again, Any other though on a career are welcome. Jamie — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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"I have known a handful of really fine physicians in all practices of medicine-statistically considering all I have met an known, that is pretty scary." Similar experience here, and I concur. "It can be very disheartening and frustrating" That is absolutely indisputable.  What I have found is that you MUST have an ally.  With an ally you will sail "reasonably" smoothly (not entirely, mind you – but reasonably) through some rocky roads they have in store for you as a patient.  Without an ally, you are at the mercy of strangers, many of whom are as personality-disordered/ enraged /sociopathic as any equivalent pathology (be it cardiac, neuro, whatever) that they treat.  Anybody who fails to take advantage of the opportunity to make friends with a nurse or doctor (who has half a brain) is stupid, because one day they will really need that person for an ally.  I could go on and on with anecdote, but the point is made.  I am agressively patient-advocacy oriented (which wins me no prizes in any hospital, let me assure you) and have been the ally more than once in a non-employee capacity, and I was amazed at the indifference that I encountered, and those delivering it to me knew perfectly well that I could rock their world – I’d hate to be a patient with no ally.  In fact, I just wouldn’t do it.  (indifference was delivered, but followed by correct action, so was ultimately rather impotent and silly/petty – an attempt to say "who do you think you are" without saying it – knowing I’d tell them exactly what they were if they had)  If you’re going to be indifferent, at LEAST follow through on it!  Sorry, little angry diatribe, had to talk to that gov’t agency today – you know the one…. PVC’s, all day, all the night before, new onset (right after lasix started), no labs ordered.  I ask about it, politely, and you’re gunna be INDIFFERENT to me?  Naaah.  I don’t think so. Gary (tangential, possibly going off in a bad direction… LOL)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (above snipped) Bottom line is it is grueling, time consuming and requires some real grit and tenacity as well as physical stamina. Wonderful summary Margrove. Overall, and honestly, this sounds very realistic to me, even with the numerous cautions. My own background is in the physical sciences, not medicine nor psychology. I mostly view such things through the lens of being a patient, regardless of how much literature I read or experience I gain. I don’t mean any disrespect to the good doctors, but there are so many bad doctors who manage to slip through the system and end up treating patients that my faith in the system is often challenged. Sure, it’s hard to pass the educational, financial and other filters, but, as a patient, I still end up getting treated by people with titles who often don’t seem to know what they’re doing. I can’t help wondering how such people manage to get qualified. Best Wishes, Arthur I spent an evening with a prominent neurosurgeon on Tuesday night discussing all kinds of things relevant to whatever is the topic of the day-one one of the things he said to me was," I have watched surgeries done by all kinds of specialists for 20 years, It frankly scares the shit out of me if I ever need to have my life saved by the hands of someone else. The stuff they leave behind, the inadequecy, the margin of human error is enormous. It is a wonder why more cancer patients don’t die earlier"  I have fought  battles against my fraternity throughout my career, most often only to alienate myself from others. I am by no means perfect or the best thing to ever have happened-but our system is flawed and its participants equally flawed. We have been trained to believe that medicine is our savior-we need to believe this or the sense of our own mortality is questionable at their hands. That t.v. commercial for Syms in this area where they claim,’ An educated consumer is our best customer" is the mantra we all need to heed. I have known a handful of really fine physicians in all practices of medicine-statistically considering all I have met an known, that is pretty scary. One of my first jobs was as a director of patient services for both inpatient and ambulatory psych pateints at a major hospital. My job was to oversee their diagnosis and treatment by the professional staff-it was a comedy of errors with disgraceful outcomes for too many patients-my battle began there. In retrospect, what goes on today makes then look like good medicine. Very few truly understand what an anxiety disorder feels like, or what the medications doled out feel like. Very few see why and how therapy doesn’t offer more then some fleeting moments of clarity and what to do about it. The lack of devotion, the lack of proper training, the lack of empathy and platitudes of excuses we accept in their defense has made me a very grumpy and impatient person-just like all of the posts I have read from people who want to know why they just feel lousy and fall into the hands of abusive incompetency, I wonder the same. I feel for anyone who needs to find help for themself in the morass of our health care system, or any other health care system worldwide for that matter. It can be very disheartening and frustrating. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (above snipped) Bottom line is it is grueling, time consuming and requires some real grit and tenacity as well as physical stamina. Wonderful summary Margrove. Overall, and honestly, this sounds very realistic to me, even with the numerous cautions. My own background is in the physical sciences, not medicine nor psychology. I mostly view such things through the lens of being a patient, regardless of how much literature I read or experience I gain. I don’t mean any disrespect to the good doctors, but there are so many bad doctors who manage to slip through the system and end up treating patients that my faith in the system is often challenged. Sure, it’s hard to pass the educational, financial and other filters, but, as a patient, I still end up getting treated by people with titles who often don’t seem to know what they’re doing. I can’t help wondering how such people manage to get qualified. Best Wishes, Arthur

I spent an evening with a prominent neurosurgeon on Tuesday night discussing all kinds of things relevant to whatever is the topic of the day-one one of the things he said to me was," I have watched surgeries done by all kinds of specialists for 20 years, It frankly scares the shit out of me if I ever need to have my life saved by the hands of someone else. The stuff they leave behind, the inadequecy, the margin of human error is enormous. It is a wonder why more cancer patients don’t die earlier"  I have fought  battles against my fraternity throughout my career, most often only to alienate myself from others. I am by no means perfect or the best thing to ever have happened-but our system is flawed and its participants equally flawed. We have been trained to believe that medicine is our savior-we need to believe this or the sense of our own mortality is questionable at their hands. That t.v. commercial for Syms in this area where they claim,’ An educated consumer is our best customer" is the mantra we all need to heed. I have known a handful of really fine physicians in all practices of medicine-statistically considering all I have met an known, that is pretty scary. One of my first jobs was as a director of patient services for both inpatient and ambulatory psych pateints at a major hospital. My job was to oversee their diagnosis and treatment by the professional staff-it was a comedy of errors with disgraceful outcomes for too many patients-my battle began there. In retrospect, what goes on today makes then look like good medicine. Very few truly understand what an anxiety disorder feels like, or what the medications doled out feel like. Very few see why and how therapy doesn’t offer more then some fleeting moments of clarity and what to do about it. The lack of devotion, the lack of proper training, the lack of empathy and platitudes of excuses we accept in their defense has made me a very grumpy and impatient person-just like all of the posts I have read from people who want to know why they just feel lousy and fall into the hands of abusive incompetency, I wonder the same. I feel for anyone who needs to find help for themself in the morass of our health care system, or any other health care system worldwide for that matter. It can be very disheartening and frustrating. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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(above snipped) Bottom line is it is grueling, time consuming and requires some real grit and tenacity as well as physical stamina.

Wonderful summary Margrove. Overall, and honestly, this sounds very realistic to me, even with the numerous cautions. My own background is in the physical sciences, not medicine nor psychology. I mostly view such things through the lens of being a patient, regardless of how much literature I read or experience I gain. I don’t mean any disrespect to the good doctors, but there are so many bad doctors who manage to slip through the system and end up treating patients that my faith in the system is often challenged. Sure, it’s hard to pass the educational, financial and other filters, but, as a patient, I still end up getting treated by people with titles who often don’t seem to know what they’re doing. I can’t help wondering how such people manage to get qualified. Best Wishes, Arthur — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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HI, I was told by a writer on ASAP that Margrove might be able to answer this question. Thank you in advance. HI, Can anyone give me an idea of what type of schooling would be required in the us to persue a career in psychiatry.  Also what would be required to persue a degree in pschylogy? Jamie — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Baccalaureate:  4 years – often called "pre-med" program Med School:  4 years – 2 classroom, 2 internship – must graduate – must pass licensing exam for M.D.  Note licensure as MD in any particular state is not done with reciprocity available from other states necessarily, as with nursing licensure. Residency:  3 to 4 years specifically in Psychiatry Psychologist:  Master’s degree is required to obtain licensure in a given state to become "licensed clinical psychologist".  When applying for a job, you will be (very) possibly competing with people who have their PhD though. Therapist:  A willingness to make a sign that says "therapist", and adequate ability to affix it to a visible location on an outer wall, preferably a wall adjacent to the building you plan to work in.  Spelling "therapist" and your name correctly are advisable, but also not required.  Seriously – I met one of these people, who gave me some VERY good advice and insights, so they should not be discounted.  I do think they have limited capacity to help the severely disabled, however that is solely my opinion here.  There is no licensure involved. http://www.apa.org/students/ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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HI, I was told by a writer on ASAP that Margrove might be able to answer this question. Thank you in advance. HI, Can anyone give me an idea of what type of schooling would be required in the us to persue a career in psychiatry.  Also what would be required to persue a degree in pschylogy? Jamie

4 years towards a BS or BA degree with a high grade point average in science or pre med for MD and any liberal arts or science for psychology-you may be able to get a undergrad degree in three years as I did-you then take the GRE  (starting in Junior year, sometimes more then once)exam for grad school towards a degree in psychology or your mcat exam for admission into medical school-you need to score pretty high on these grad record exams-then you can do the following: most states have their own licensing for practicing psychotherapy-California for instance has none so you can call yourself a counselor or marriage and family therapist with no affiliation to any board or licensed group-other states have other rules-you can hang a shingle just cause you want to and charge people for any kind of therapy you can legally do which is about what some docs actually do-like primal, licorice eating. biblio therapy, transcendental climaxing therapy, yoga yogurt, or whatever you can get a masters in psychology and practice in some states or get an msw or masters in social work and practice if you had majored in "case study" rather then social service or administration (three course studies in an msw) you can then go further like a lcsw degree or,  if you wish, for a doctorate in social work, psychology or education (D. Ed degree) and become licensed in most states to practice however most knowledge in psychotherapy is gained post graduate in further studies affiliated with post grad courses or specialized programs like certification from the Albert Ellis Institute or the Alfred Adler Institute or whatever (these are programs I attended)  You can go into a program of clinical psychology and get a Phd or the newer Psy D degrees which are further broken down by the school you attend into clinical, applied, experimental, developmental, neurological, neurobiological etc, studies in psychology-again the education is  both  academic and applied, but the application format is limited by time for the most part and you learn too little and too generalized a knowledge in actually doing therapy to really do more then hang a shingle once graduated to do much, unless you study more or get mentored (or select to become a vaulted psychoanalyst and attend your own analysis and go to a post grad analytic institute like Adler etc.). You can get a masters in two years, a doctorate in another two if you can complete your doctoral thesis  your dissertation of it which is both written and sometimes an oral presentation to defend why you believe the shit you wrote  before a group of  governing doctorates-it must be a new piece of data that you have researched, tested and present in a well documented manner that meets the criterea of the board of examiners-then you need to get state licensing and in most instances join a board or peer reviewed group like the "American Psychological Association" and your state version of the same-or join a band and screw the whole thing for an MD that specializes in Psychiatry you do not pass go and collect your 200 and go to graduate school as above, but go to medical (graduate) school instead. You have all kinds of programs to try and get into these days and can apply to medical colleges that are allopathic or offer a medical degree or osteopathic that offer a DO degree-it is rumored that the D.O. degree is easier to get into and an easier program to get through-cough.. So is going out of the USA, and one dear collegue of mine was educated in Switzerland in the 50’s with a first rate education-the mexican, or other third world places are pretty dumbed down and I wouldn’t recommend them to any but the real down and out who just want the degree You will recieve 2 years of academic studies that will try and kill you quickly the first year and if you survive without failing or falling in love with your cadavor will get a 2 year clinical practicum where you are the slave and lowest slug on the medical totem pole-here you will attend both classroom and rotations in hospital or clinical settings under the tuteladge of your medical professors and the staff of docs at the hospital. Once you get out and if you are still alive you then get to take your medical exams to make sure you still have a brain left and if you pass you get to graduate doctor school and become an indentured servant to a hospital and do a internship for one or two years depending on the program and a residency, which for psychiatry may be 3 or 4 years. The internship portion is where you will be forced into sleep deprivation, doing everything from changing dressings and bed pans to attending and learning how to crack open a chest and repair a heart-you will rotate in swing shifts in all medical specialties in that hospital until you declare a specialty or course of medical study you wish to practice for the rest of your now shortened life. There are all kinds of residency programs in all kinds of med schools, or educational hospitals that are accredited-I did a combined residency in family practice and psychiatry which was a  new and novel program at the dump I attended-this allowed one to do both or either once you complete the course. Once you do get out, if you are still breathing you get to take board licensing tests, state tests for the state in which you intend on working and if you’re an ass like me do a fellowship which is more of the same in your specialty where they try and cram even more junk into your already overloaded and burnt out brain-the good news is you do get paid as an intern and resident I think today you earn about 24 k-30 k a year-sounds good no? If I told you what I earned you would gag. You also get vouchers for free food on a meal plan but only on days you are on call for more then 24 hours which occurs about once a month if you’re in a really nice program, more frequently doin the 24 shift in the better ones–once you get done you can go for board certification which requires  a bunch of your peers to try and trick you into answering their inquires wrongly and further testing of your ability to doctor-if you win this new challenge you get to pay for more fraternal rights to stay a member of this party-after it is all over and you are ready to go out and seek a job you need to know you still must take continuing medical courses to maintain your license-thankfully today with the internet you can do this from home and ace the courses since they are easy as shit anyway- then you can continue to do post doctorol fellowships if you choose or go for the gusto and get a job which hopefully you have already been solicited for by numerous places who just want to suck the remainder of you dry for a paltry sum that barely covers your malpractice insurance other alternatives are physicians assistant which some states offer-you play doctor under a docs supervision and can do almost anything he can do he wants you there so he can see more pateints and you cost much less then a full doctorate level doc-these programs are about 2 years post BA/BS and are pretty hard hitting programs psychiatric nurse-you go to nursing school either after your bachelors degree or get one while there with your nursing degree-either a licensed practical nurse LPN or a registered nurse RN-both can assist in therapy and in caring for patients-between the lines, in most big facilities they actually do the doctoring but no one is supposed to know-it is illegal Then there is the nurse practitioner which is similar to the physicians assistant except you are also trained in nursing so when you are needed to do an emergency trach you can actually do it rather then puke on the floor and run from the room screaming for a doc or your momma. Bottom line is it is grueling, time consuming and requires some real grit and tenacity as well as physical stamina. Dental school is faster, they make more money, and are rarely asked questions at parties-Wrote this out real fast so sorry for any typos or goof ups go call a local medical college and ask what they require for a psychiatry specialty and after they stop laughing they will tell you what you need and what it will all cost you—-today–I would bet  it is so vast and  enormous a bill that you would need to be paying off loans forever Jamie knowing you for some time now and not wishing to sound negative–I think if you could get there you would be so distracted by the overwhelming stimuli you would be stuck in the bookstore reading the bios on the covers until the next semester begins-  If you really want to get into the mental health gig I would encourage you to do some volunteer work in a psych hospital or the psych ward of a regular hospital to get the feel for the real down and dirty stuff-if this still looks like fun to you may wish to persue it. I was severely ill when I did all the schooling-but I used it as a distraction from myself in a way. Initially I wasn’t going to go into mental health since I thought it would be hypocritical of me, but I found my way there or rather it found me. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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5.22 not long to go!. By the way if you can’t sleep, try some physical exertion. I work outside growing trees…its karma yoga I don’t wrok for money, fortunatly I have that luxury, as long as I don’t spend to much. I just have prepared 2 sacks of rose cuttings to plant out in the vicinity…creating beuaty…this sort of thing will give you good dreams all things being equal. I like to grow nut and fruit trees, primarily for the wild birds….who give me great joy, they are my friends! I love to be up at pre’dawn…getting the fire on, having everything sorted and doing good work. Still a bit concerned about the planned (UK) ‘new mental health act’…but I read very recently that the government has abonned the draft bill due to huge human rights opposition. (enforced treated possible including lock down for ANYWAY (potentialll) with mental health record…which again, is part of the reaosn why I would say to peopel here to think long and hard before reporting a mental health typem problem to the government authoritioes here. You really don’t want this albertross around your neck – its a fucking nightmare. Its just a fucking head game…thier head game, theuir systems head game, ok a negative head game, but something that you can transcend. (But I stil, feel threatened with potential imprisonment and enforced treatment) What does get to me, I have to say, if the implication (frequently presented and allured to when the agent provacators were at work trying to premote this facsist bill – you know hyping up the pyscriatric horror stories). (Mental health patient fucked my teeenage hampster type thing) So you think that the Creator is dangerous to you precious white skinned little scum? Fair enough fildth, fair enough. Thank fuck they backed off! Allah Akbar.

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I recommend a 6 am start with chillum.

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I too enjoy watching the televised Firefplace with burning log(s). Hope you are both aware that France, and Canada likely have very diffrent winter weather conditions. I am trying, and failing, to get my dump cleaned up and in order so things can be "processed" through the Holidays. Coming winter means its the last good chance to clean the windows. And a clean window is more important in the winter then in summer. Our first snowmay get here in the next couple days. We had our first heavy frost this past week. It was over due.

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"voyg" <voy…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:437e7928$0$21240$626a54ce@news.free.fr… > For me it’s a hard season where everything is more difficult to do. > My ability to fight the symptoms don’t benefit much from winter season but > rather more from summer oftenly.

Do the drab gray skies have anything to do with it?  There aren’t many sunny days in winter. > Yes, I understand you ! Kind of an oppression of smokers is a la mode. I > don’t agree… Maybe you could tell them cigs are quite a remedy for you, > as some of us told here and perhaps you can get a special authorization, > who knows ?

Doubtful.  The "experts" are suppressing knowledge of any benefit to be derived from smoking, and legal entitlement often depends on "experts." > A burning log ? Haha !

No joke.  One television channel replaces its regular broadcast schedule with a still shot of a large log burning in a fireplace.  Another does the same thing with several small logs, but only for half a day. > Thank very much you for this long reply Miki

You’re welcome. Miki

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Hi For me it’s a hard season where everything is more difficult to do. My ability to fight the symptoms don’t benefit much from winter season but rather more from summer oftenly. — Miki Kocic wrote: > Also, they’re phasing in the new anti-smoking by-law that comes into > effect on June 1, 2006.  Already my workplace doesn’t permit smoking > within 25 feet of the building entrance.  I have to climb a set of > stairs into a courtyard. The wind really blows up there and makes > the cigarette much less enjoyable, which will be a huge problem in > cold weather.  When it snows, the maintenance crews clear only a > small path on the stairs, and you can’t stand in the path blocking > people’s way while you smoke.  So I don’t know what I’m going to do.

Yes, I understand you ! Kind of an oppression of smokers is a la mode. I don’t agree… Maybe you could tell them cigs are quite a remedy for you, as some of us told here and perhaps you can get a special authorization, who knows ? > At least I’m looking forward to Christmas.  My family never celebrated it, > but I do always take the week between Christmas and New Year’s Day off > work. > I might rent a car and take a trip out of town.  On Christmas day, I plan > to sit on a warm couch with my homemade Spanish coffee and watch the TV > broadcast of a log burning.

A burning log ? Haha ! > It sounds cheesy, but it brings me a feeling > of peace and contentment I rarely know for the rest of the year.

Yes, christmas is a special time. Thank very much you for this long reply Miki Regards

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Just guessing how everybody is feeling at the beginning of the winter… Does someone have a plan for winter or feel this is a special season ? Me thinking it’s not the best of all on the level of the illness…

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On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:01:25 +0100, voyg <voy…@yahoo.com> wrote: >Just guessing how everybody is feeling at the beginning of the winter… >Does someone have a plan for winter or feel this is a special season ? >Me thinking it’s not the best of all on the level of the illness…

winter can be tough, i believe.  less sunlight, more of staying in the home, etc.  i do like winter, though.  i have a kind of love-hate relationship with winter.  But mostly i think of it as being okay. buther boy — Remove the word Spam from my e-mail to contact me… http://www.PrivacySig.com/SIGbutherboySpam-gmail-black.png ~

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"voyg" <voy…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:43712e58$0$5299$636a15ce@news.free.fr… > Just guessing how everybody is feeling at the beginning of the winter… > Does someone have a plan for winter or feel this is a special season ? > Me thinking it’s not the best of all on the level of the illness…

Winter is going to take away one of my favourite things, which is driving out to a park with my father or brother and sitting around watching dogs. People aren’t safe to watch because they get uptight, but dogs love the attention and their owners love to talk about their pets.  It’s hardly snowboarding off a mountaintop, but it’s a fun thing to do, and it involves my absolute favourite thing, which is talking to strangers.  But once the cold and snow hit, it’ll be too cold and wet to hang out in a park. Also, they’re phasing in the new anti-smoking by-law that comes into effect on June 1, 2006.  Already my workplace doesn’t permit smoking within 25 feet of the building entrance.  I have to climb a set of stairs into a courtyard. The wind really blows up there and makes the cigarette much less enjoyable, which will be a huge problem in cold weather.  When it snows, the maintenance crews clear only a small path on the stairs, and you can’t stand in the path blocking people’s way while you smoke.  So I don’t know what I’m going to do. At least I’m looking forward to Christmas.  My family never celebrated it, but I do always take the week between Christmas and New Year’s Day off work. I might rent a car and take a trip out of town.  On Christmas day, I plan to sit on a warm couch with my homemade Spanish coffee and watch the TV broadcast of a log burning.  It sounds cheesy, but it brings me a feeling of peace and contentment I rarely know for the rest of the year. Miki

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